Doc

Yup, There are all kinds of big deer that have been taken in our area that had never been seen before. Some of that might be that they never were here before and got driven into the area by the orange army, or perhaps rut has pulled them into the area temporarily. Or maybe they simply are far better at avoiding us than we ever could imagine. Even with the advent of cameras everywhere, the big guys are pretty good at staying out of the picture. Those that I have seen, are seldom seen more than once.

This idea of forced "bait wars" is the one thing that might move me from being only mildly opposed to baiting into a position of more activism in any fight for legalization. The practice of baiting is one of those things where I could are less as long as it doesn't affect my hunting. But when I feel that a neighbor is actively trying to draw deer from my property onto his, I see that as a bit of an aggressive act. I don't want to see that sort of thing get started in hunting.

My first bow that accounted for my first kill (pigeons in the hay mow) was a hickory longbow that I built at age 11 with a draw-shave and hours of work. Crossbows (legal or otherwise) weren't even in the picture, and certainly not something that I could come up with by myself. So the legality of crossbow hunting wasn't even an issue back then. Another influence was the advent of archery competition in my 20's and 30's. We owned a commercial archery range when I was 21. I think by that time, I was totally committed to bows, and all the intricacies and challenges of archery skills. By that point, the crossbow (legal or not) wouldn't have had a chance to sneak into my life. But who knows. If I had found an old crossbow up in the attic at age 11, maybe it all would have taken a different turn. No real way of knowing.

Another aspect of the baiting question pulled from a Bowsite.com article by Dr. Dave Samuel: Baiting is viewed as drawing deer away from those who don't use bait to those that do. He also noted that it may take advantage of neighbors with good habitat, by drawing away deer from those lands. In Michigan, there are situations where one person baits heavily on his property, drawing deer off smaller adjacent properties. This then forces those who hunt on small properties to bait. They may not want to, but they get into it so they can see deer. Any comments?

First of all, do not be concerned about my moderator status. In terms of my discussions, I am just another member expressing opinions just like anyone else here. Second, I cannot construct my replies to accommodate reading comprehension problems. There is always an assumption that people can detect nuances of the language. Third, I never even hinted "impartiality". I have definite opinions and I generally have no difficulty expressing them exactly the way I want them expressed. Framing arguments as right or wrong indicates that there is no room for discussion, which is seldom the case. But that is not the same as impartiality. I always reserve the right to have opinions that may indicate that I think or feel differently on the subject. Regarding the "challenge" reactions to the "respect" comment, I guess that doesn't really bother me. I am simply trying to convey an inward look and respond with honesty, which is how I was hoping that all would respond to this thread. But, I can't control how people process that in their own minds.

I have a disgusting picture of a human carcass that has been partially eaten that is way too graphic for posting. I mean it is almost guaranteed to turn the stomach of even the strongest gut. Whenever the subject of Kodiak hunting comes up, that is the picture that flashes through my mind and reminds me why it isn't really something for me. Also some of the descriptions that bear attack survivors come up with are pretty disgusting things to contemplate.

I reload five different calibers. There are some cost benefits, but not as big a deal as you might expect .... Particularly if you put a value on your time. The real value is for those of us who get a bit anal about small groups, flat trajectories, and speeds and energy and matching the perfect load and components to each of your rifles/pistols. It is not hard to get started if you have an experienced buddy to sit down with you and go through the steps. Trying to wade through the books and procedures and safety precautions on your own can be a bit intimidating. You should have experienced assistance with equipment and material choices and purchases. You should have at least one good reloading book (I use the Hornaday and Lyman books). Spend a lot of time reading the processes and info in the beginning of the books so that you understand the reasons for the processes, and also so that you can ask intelligent questions of whoever is guiding you through the process.

Actually, sitting over a pile of bait really shouldn't be anymore boring than sitting there without it. In fact watching other critters visiting the pile has to be a bit entertaining .... lol. I think when it comes to how much of an aid baiting can be, it likely comes down to what I said earlier..... some know how to do it and some don't. I have no doubt that it works when intelligently used, or the equipment and the materials used would not be a huge commercial venture. You can only fool people for so long. If the technique were worthless, I don't think it would take people long to figure that out.

Correct. I intentionally took the question of legality out of the original question and tried to limit some of the off-shoots: "So what do you think. Is baiting for deer something you would like to get involved with (if it was legalized)?" I'm trying to get at the mentality and motives and gut reactions involved in bait-hunting and how we personally see bait fitting in with our visions of what hunting means to us. It's all about personal, individual opinion. Maybe I should have phrased it all a little clearer.

First of all let me correct a very blatant mis-statement of what I really said. I did not say that I have no respect for those that use a shortcut. What I did say was that I admit to not having a lot of respect for hunting accomplishments that make use of shortcuts. So when using quotes, please try not to purposely change them around. But to reply to your comment, apparently you see some kind of contradiction. Right or wrong judgments are not the same as value judgments of accomplishment. Of course I do not place the same value (or respect of accomplishment) on an animal harvested using shortcuts as I do for those taken without them. That is not saying that anyone has done anything wrong, or right. It is simply my value judgment on the challenge and accomplishments. One example is when someone has taken a deer with true primitive archery equipment vs. when I take one with my modern compound with all the gizmos and go-fasters. Neither of us are wrong in our methods, but one is a heck of a lot more worthy an accomplishment. As another example, don't be expecting a bunch of o-o-o's and ah-h-h's from me over an animal taken via a canned hunt. That's not a statement of a fact that they did something wrong, but simply that I don't rank the accomplishment in the same league as a wild free-range hunt. My attitude is exactly the same with baiting. It simply cheapens the accomplishment. That attitude says nothing about right or wrong.

So, perhaps the time is right for the new birthday present out front......

I have seen a few episodes of that program and realize that it is a hunt for a much younger man than myself. Actually at any age, you have to be in pretty good shape just to keep up.....lol. But for those that like the challenge of hunting something that hunts back, it would be a must-do hunt. Even under the protection of an armed guide, a full-on charge of one of those critters will certainly test your ability to snap-shoot a running animal intent on eating your face off. For me that's a bit too much pressure. Plus, I would have to build an addition in order to display the mount.....lol.

How does a turkey know where to scratch to find acorns under the leaves? As you can tell, I am not much of a turkey hunter, but I know that deer can smell acorns under the leaves and they go right for them. But This idea of a turkey kind of being able to do the same thing made me wonder if they might have a developed sense of smell that nobody really talks about. Yes, I know they scratch up some huge areas some times and maybe it is just luck. But something tells them where the acorns might be, even though they are completely hidden from view. Any thoughts?

Or not........lol.

I was hoping that food plots would not get too involved in this thread, but I can certainly see the connection in terms of motivation. But basically that's probably good for another topic. At any rate, I've got to say that I hold basically the same opinion on both practices. I may believe that it doesn't fit in with anything that I ever want to be associated with, but it's not something I am going to get all militant about.....lol. However, I can see where these practices might interfere with my own personal hunting. I might not see that as a very friendly development....lol. I could see where I might get a bit testy if I had a neighbor actively engaging in a campaign to draw deer from my property on to theirs.

Ok, I will. I explained my motives for starting this thread. If you don't accept that then that's on you.

I have encountered the infamous mosquitos and black flies of Northern Ontario during a remote fishing trip one summer. It has left a huge impression on me that is still just as vivid today. I can't imagine that any product could get the best of those critters.

No, it has nothing to do with "if it ain't broke". I'm just cheap.

When the day comes that we are not mature enough or self-confident enough to discuss some of hunting's more thorny problems and disagreements, then I will know that all of the passion has gone out of the sport. When we cower in the corner fearing to express ourselves and think that we should engage in our hunting with a muzzle on, then we really are in trouble. Discussion and exchange of opinions and ideas are all part of what internet forums are all about. If we cower and cringe from doing that then we might as well just fold up shop. Frankly, I am interested in what other hunters think (whether I agree with them or not) and that is why I started this thread.

I can't remember the name of it. I bought it with my Mathews back in 1999. I've got a great memory, but it's a little short.....lol.

I shoot 4" vanes with a substantial helix. Use the Jo-Jan multi-fletcher that I've had for a jillion years. Seems to do a good job of spinning the arrows in flight. I have no idea what that arrangement might do to a Whisker Biscuit. Might cause problems. I have a spring loaded prong-style arrow rest.

Not sure what kind of license you were expecting to get, but perhaps this web page will help you understand what you actually got. Lol .... the good news is that it was free. http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/96291.html

This is a sentiment that keeps coming up anytime we discuss just about anything that has to do with hunting. Is the hunting community so fragile that we cannot discuss those things that we disagree on? Are hunters so tender that we have to hide how we feel about various issues? Is it necessary that we all walk in lock-step like a bunch of mind-numbed robots because we are incapable of having serious discussions involving hunting ethics and issues? I don't see stifling opinions as any kind of display of solidarity or strength. I see it as a weakness that we had better get over.

Bow or gun? Are you satisfied with your marksmanship? Do you know anyone who hunts that would let you go with them? Have you been out scouting yet .... how much?

One thing I have found out on my practice range is that it is impossible for me to get off a good bow shot with mosquitos buzzing in my ears or bouncing off my eyeballs. It all just totally destroys my concentration. I tend to rush the shot. And I will almost always flinch at the shot, trying to get it done so I can start waving my arms like a pair of construction flags to keep those mosquitos from landing and doing their work.