Doc

I was hoping that food plots would not get too involved in this thread, but I can certainly see the connection in terms of motivation. But basically that's probably good for another topic. At any rate, I've got to say that I hold basically the same opinion on both practices. I may believe that it doesn't fit in with anything that I ever want to be associated with, but it's not something I am going to get all militant about.....lol. However, I can see where these practices might interfere with my own personal hunting. I might not see that as a very friendly development....lol. I could see where I might get a bit testy if I had a neighbor actively engaging in a campaign to draw deer from my property on to theirs.

Ok, I will. I explained my motives for starting this thread. If you don't accept that then that's on you.

I have encountered the infamous mosquitos and black flies of Northern Ontario during a remote fishing trip one summer. It has left a huge impression on me that is still just as vivid today. I can't imagine that any product could get the best of those critters.

No, it has nothing to do with "if it ain't broke". I'm just cheap.

When the day comes that we are not mature enough or self-confident enough to discuss some of hunting's more thorny problems and disagreements, then I will know that all of the passion has gone out of the sport. When we cower in the corner fearing to express ourselves and think that we should engage in our hunting with a muzzle on, then we really are in trouble. Discussion and exchange of opinions and ideas are all part of what internet forums are all about. If we cower and cringe from doing that then we might as well just fold up shop. Frankly, I am interested in what other hunters think (whether I agree with them or not) and that is why I started this thread.

I can't remember the name of it. I bought it with my Mathews back in 1999. I've got a great memory, but it's a little short.....lol.

I shoot 4" vanes with a substantial helix. Use the Jo-Jan multi-fletcher that I've had for a jillion years. Seems to do a good job of spinning the arrows in flight. I have no idea what that arrangement might do to a Whisker Biscuit. Might cause problems. I have a spring loaded prong-style arrow rest.

Not sure what kind of license you were expecting to get, but perhaps this web page will help you understand what you actually got. Lol .... the good news is that it was free. http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/96291.html

This is a sentiment that keeps coming up anytime we discuss just about anything that has to do with hunting. Is the hunting community so fragile that we cannot discuss those things that we disagree on? Are hunters so tender that we have to hide how we feel about various issues? Is it necessary that we all walk in lock-step like a bunch of mind-numbed robots because we are incapable of having serious discussions involving hunting ethics and issues? I don't see stifling opinions as any kind of display of solidarity or strength. I see it as a weakness that we had better get over.

Bow or gun? Are you satisfied with your marksmanship? Do you know anyone who hunts that would let you go with them? Have you been out scouting yet .... how much?

One thing I have found out on my practice range is that it is impossible for me to get off a good bow shot with mosquitos buzzing in my ears or bouncing off my eyeballs. It all just totally destroys my concentration. I tend to rush the shot. And I will almost always flinch at the shot, trying to get it done so I can start waving my arms like a pair of construction flags to keep those mosquitos from landing and doing their work.

So are the ECOs lugging some kind of device around to measure draw force?

Ok, then maybe we are in agreement. I don't think there is anything that is a "slam-dunk" when it comes to deer hunting unless you are hunting a guaranteed canned hunt. But I do see baited hunts as being a situation that definitely sets the odds considerably in favor of the hunter. Another way of putting it is it is a shortcut to success. But the real proof is in the pudding. If it is a practice that just plain doesn't work, nobody would be buying automatic feeders and bait. And I doubt that anyone can convince me that all these baited hunts that I see advertised are simply because the guide or outfitter just enjoys buying feeders and bait.

I personally do not like framing the baiting question as being either right or wrong. I don't think it comes out to be that easy because of all the different cultural and heritage variations and even geographical variations. The quickest way for a discussion to get ugly real fast is to try to impose our versions of right and wrong on others. I have a personal way of looking at hunting in my life. It doesn't allow for my training or conditioning wild animals for the convenience of my hunting success. That's my own rule and for me it makes up part of the definition of hunting in my world. I am not dumb enough to think that I have any lock on how hunting must be looked at and practiced by others. However, if somebody's baiting were affecting my hunting (and I believe there may be cases where that could happen), I probably would be a bit upset, and I make no apologies for that. That potential alone would tend to keep me in favor of keeping the practice illegal in NYS. I have no desire to be forced into baiting wars with neighbors. And the way the law is currently, that kind of conflict does not occur. I will also admit to not having a lot of respect for hunting accomplishments that make use of shortcuts, but I do tend to keep that kind of judgment to myself.

So basically your saying not to waste any time even thinking about hunting over bait because it just doesn't work? So why did the rancher even bother setting you up with bait? Why did he even buy a feeder? It's like I said above, if it didn't work, we wouldn't even be discussing it. Nobody would go for it.

The bunny-huggers come in all shapes and sizes, but they do not call wind energy "green power" because of the color of the windmills.

I do recall one exceptionally hot day years ago in mid-October, when even the light camo tee-shirt had to come off. Fortunately, the bugs had already taken a hit by some frosts. It all just seemed weird and not a whole lot like hunting either. There was nothing moving in that heat. However, given the kind of weather patterns that we have been getting, perhaps an early paralyzing blizzard is more of a threat this year .... lol.

Congratulations on a nice looking buck and thank you, you just made my point. That also kind of shoots hell out of the argument that trophy deer simply won't show up at a feeder. And I assume the deer was taken in the daylight, so the idea of baiting success only happening at night doesn't seem to hold much water either. It seems to me that if bait hunting were such a hit and miss affair, it wouldn't be much of a topic would it. Who the heck would want to do it if it didn't work ..... lol.

I knew when I started this thread that there would be a lot of truth uncovered relating to motivations and expectations of hunters and their visions of what hunting means to them. It's all good stuff that confirms a lot of the theories I have had about the evolving mentalities of hunters. What I have found shocking is the number of members that want nothing to do with the practice even if it were legal. A total no-holds-barred attitude may be growing, but it has not yet taken over the sport completely. The element of challenge in hunting is not quite dead yet, but it sure is taking a beating.

The last sentence of this paragraph makes no sense to me. Certainly the banning of leg-hold traps is indeed the end product of animal rights activity. And yes I think I see the handprint of those very same people involved with the banning of lead ammo. I think you can also add the authors of the Safe Act into this same group. I would interpret that paragraph as an endorsement of the idea of banning previously legal products without compensation. That's the same mentality as the authors of the Safe Act. Screw the hunters, screw the trappers. It's hard to believe that this is what you are really saying. What am I mis-interpreting here? Or am I not actually mis-interpreting anything that you are saying in this regard.

I think some people do know how to do it and some don't. Those guys on TV shooting out of those box-blinds obviously know what they're doing because for them it's not a question of whether deer will show up in daylight hours, but rather which one of the dozens wandering around munching on the bait do they feel like shooting.....lol.

Nope. Just anticipating some hunting problems that I get hints of every time I go out to practice. This is about the worst year for mosquitos that I have ever experienced. I am hoping that I have a secret weapon ..... thermacell.

Look, I am only offering up a possible explanation for the comment. If you feel good about your conduct in the discussion, that's up to you.

I agree. I think the trend in hunting is away from challenge and more into the "Let's get this thing done and over with". Frankly, I think the DEC is getting in tune with that mentality also as they keep pushing for more efficient ways of wacking deer populations. I think they see a day when controlling deer populations through hunting may become more and more difficult. And so baiting will be getting to be increasingly attractive to them.

There is no "anti-science" stance. Simply a statement that far too many people daily read garbage that is put forth as "a study" and eagerly swallow every word of it without any engagement of their own brain simply because it uses the word "study". To me that is a true frustration. Not wanting to talk for him, but I suspect his comment may have had more to do with your propensity for uncivil ways of conversing when discussions don't go the way you want them to.