Doc

Before you attempt to side-track the discussion with the idea of anyone putting legal limits on range, let me point out that no one has even hinted at that.

I have a copy of that video, and for me that was the first time I had ever seen actual video documentation of "string jumping" as well. It is a pretty darn undeniable picture. Since that time, I have seen a lot of video examples of just how quick deer reactions are like ...... Almost fly-like.....lol. As much as people want to treat archery equipment like firearms, there is always the unmistakable video evidence that brings all this back to reality.

This discussion reminds me of an engineer I used to work with who was able to consistently keep his arrows in a coffee-cup sized group at 60 yards. But when a deer was in front of him, he dinged and wounded and lost more deer than anyone I've ever known. In one season, he wounded and lost 5 separate deer. His shots all averaged right around that 60 yard distance, and no matter how many people told him to limit that distance, he continued to wound deer, trying to shoot out to his maximum practice range proficiency. It became so exasperating that I started to avoid any hunting conversations with him because I knew he would just list off another string of recently wounded deer because of his bull-headedness. I imagine that all these years, he's likely been continuing stuffing arrows into deer parts that were never intended to be hit. He was deadly on the practice range with stationery targets but never seemed to recognize that there is a lot more to connecting on live animals than just maxing out his abilities every time out. Some people just never do get it. He simply was just another of those hard-heads that didn't care about his reputation for screwing up or that his stubbornness was being paid for by the animals he was hunting and wounding.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone being called any names .... that's for starters. Secondly, yes, I am for putting limits on bowhunters.....self imposed limits of logic and conscience. The thought of people out there with no limits on shot selection is a frightening one regardless of weapon used. And yes, those kinds of attitudes left unchallenged do usually result in a huge disservice to the sport of bowhunting. Third, I believe that those who don't speak out when they feel advice is crossing the line, are just as bad as those that peddle that misleading nonsense in forums or anywhere else. If you are a person of principle, you cannot let irresponsibility and irresponsible statements stand unchallenged. Fourth, it has to be acknowledged that we do have young or inexperienced beginning bowhunters who really don't need to be misled by wild statements of expectation. Here again, to just sit back and let mis-information pass on to beginners is as bad as the person making such bogus statements. Fifth, your theoretical formula for setting your limits based on what you can do on an archery range with static and controlled conditions that in no way represent real hunting situations, completely ignores all the potential uncontrollable variables that have been pointed out no fewer than a half dozen times each on this thread alone. Ignoring those may be convenient, but gives a very misleading picture of real capabilities.

No guides, but the law required the services of an outfitter. To satisfy the legal requirement, we rented a cabin from Shining Tree Camp for the week. They supplied the licenses. We stayed in the cabin the first night because of our late arrival time and took off on our own the next day. And also the last night we used the cabin for a good night's sleep before heading home. The land where we were hunting was crown land, available to anyone, but no one makes the effort to crawl back in as far as we did. The whole deal was planned in the engineering offices of Xerox, and we spent an entire year working out the details. We started off with topo maps and selected the lakes and swamps and camp area. We bought tapes and magazine articles on moose calling. We took no canned items in, and operated completely on freeze-dried foods and the better part of the diet consisted of fish that we caught in the mid-day hours (Man they were good!). We had one guy that was really great at filleting northerns and walleyes, and he was one heck of a cook too. Oh, and I never mentioned that it was a bow hunt. By the way, this all happened back in 1986, so I don't even know if Shining Tree Camp still exists, and if it does, I am sure that someone else owns it by now. I'm also sure that the cost is no where near as cheap as it was back then. Four of us spent only $500 each .... total price. Even back then that was super cheap. I loved the fact that it was all DIY, and successfully done without any guides.

One thing that comes to mind is the question of whether or not they are using the same metrics when they compile the info. That could make a heck of a difference in any comparisons from one year to another.

I was there. It was deep into Ontario Canada. Up to a place called Shining Tree. Then 40 miles farther on a nasty dirt road. Then into a lake and all the way to the end of that lake. A 150 yard portage to another lake and then all the way down the second lake. A campsite carved out of the brush, and finally all set up for a moose hunt. No cabins. No people. No roads or foot-paths. No signs of people. No cars, trains, or even the sound of planes. Just moose, bears, beavers, otters, martens, walleyes, pike and a gray jay that would eat out of your hand. I have never heard such quiet. It was paradise. Probably a real crappy place to be in the winter, but in late fall there is no place that's better. Oh yeah, it was cut way too short when it was all interrupted by having to pack out one huge pile of moose-meat after only a few days.

Honestly, I don't know whether it is some kind of macho thing when people imagine that they can routinely pull off those kinds of super long shots or whether it is just some total disregard for the prey that they hunt that makes them not care that they are taking irresponsible shots. But, when people start relying on luck with their shooting, to make up for their lack of hunting skills to get close enough to do the job right, it does kind of rub me the wrong way. I will not say that 100 yard kills on deer cannot be made. It all is relative to how many wounded losses you are willing to accept, or how little a messed up shot on a live deer bothers you. If you don't care about such things, start flinging arrows until something finally drops. But don't be coming on here and trying to make like those are average shots that people should be taking, here or anywhere else. You simply will be called out every time. You are doing the sport of bowhunting a terrible injustice, and hopefully newcomers to bowhunting will recognize BS when they read it. And it serves no one to simply let this kind of irresponsible talk stand without challenge. The reasons why those shots should be passed has been well documented in this thread. Those that choose to ignore all that just to satisfy some kind of machismo I guess probably will do that regardless of what is said. Irresponsibility is simply a given in any form of hunting and no amount of arguing on a forum is ever going to change that. But damn us if we don't try.

That's funny, when I started thinking about how long I have been bowhunting in the last reply, I also started thinking about the mindset of bowhunters back then. You know the whole reason that I got into bowhunting back then was the challenge of having to get close to the deer. Actually, everyone that I knew was kind of into that same thing. The whole deal was having the hunting skill to get within 20 yards or less of a deer, drawing back the bow without getting spotted, and then making the shot. The emphasis was on woodslore and stealth. That's where the challenge came from and that's where the satisfaction came from. That's what separated the bow season from the gun season. Somehow over the years the whole mentality of bowhunting has shifted away from the "hunting" part of it, and has become a reliance on what technology some guy in an office can invent to get the deer for us. When did we decide that the idea of bowhunting was to see how far away we can shoot a deer? With that kind of mentality, I can't figure out why people don't go all the way with that thinking and simply stay with the gun. What is all this screwing around with bows and crossbows if you are going to maintain the gun shooting mentality and try to turn these weapons of challenge into just another long distance machine? Doesn't anybody take any pride in up-close and personal hunting skills anymore?

Shooting the bow since I was 11, when I built my first hickory longbow ..... lol. Got my first bowhunting license in 1965 ..... Damn! That'll be 49 years this fall. Never missed a season in all those years.

Wow, I really don't know what is going on in this forum these days, but it is getting so that you can't even answer a question without someone turning it into some kind of huge manufactured controversy. What seems to be the problem here? A bit too much cabin fever or what? I would suggest that people stop looking for ulterior motives in every word that is typed here, and try a bit harder at not making more out of things than what's really there. Let's see if we can work our way back to a little bit of cordiality and at least an attempt at civil discussion.

Ha-ha ... kind of goofy to ask a question that you can answer yourself in a few seconds. But anyway, I was happy to do it.

You asked the question, I answered it. There is no bias in simple math, so I have no clue where you conjured up such a crazy comment. And of course none of that has anything to do with disrespecting this or disrespecting that. It is all simple math directed specifically at your question. Whatever you are manufacturing in your mind, or trying to start here, I can't begin to guess. All I can tell you is, If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

Yes, I believe I answered the exact question you asked and then some. And I wasn't answering for anybody, but simply responding directly to your question.

An arrow that travels at an average speed of *300 f/sec for 75 yards takes .75 seconds to travel that distance. A deer walking at an average **3.5 MPH will advance 46.2 inches in that .75 seconds. An arrow that travels at an average speed of *300 f/sec for 100 yards takes 1.00 seconds to travel that distance. A deer walking at an average **3.5 MPH will advance 61.6 inches in that 1.00 second. *Note that the assumed arrow speed is the average over the specified distance and assumes no deceleration due to air drag. **the 3.5 - 4 MPH average walking speed of a deer is from "The Deer of North America" Leonard Lee Rue III

But anyway, it can be fun to watch. I once had a motorized moving deer target on my range behind the house. Only on mine I had a speed control operated by someone other than the shooter. We also found out that you could get the support wire bouncing up and down a bit. It was fun and broke up the boredom of some of our longer shooting sessions. The distance was limited, and the farthest we could get was about 30 yards because I wanted to use the hill as a back-stop. Yeah it was fun, and also did point up just how silly trying to shoot at running deer would actually be.

Don't be apologizing for watching Fox News. It's good to see the story choices taking on something besides that constant liberal slant. What the heck most of the news organizations are a mere mouthpiece for the leftist's point of view anyway. So this would be a story I wouldn't expect to see broadcast on most of the mainstream media anyway.

Oh it can be done in a hunting situation too ........ once in a while. Ha-ha, I love the realism of those indoor running deer targets. Moving along straight as a string at a constant speed. Just exactly like a real running deer .... eh?

Flawless. Actually these weathermen would be much more accurate if they would simply put windows in the walls of the news-room so they could look outside once in awhile.

There is no problem with that until she regains consciousness. And then the intruder or whatever you were going to the gun for in the first place starts becoming the lesser problem.

Oh yeah, and then there is the speed-talk thing where the guys throw in the biggest words possible and then talk so fast that you can listen to a whole forecast and end up wondering what the heck he just got done saying. I don't get it. Are they trying to pass on useful information, or are they just spewing it all out there as fast as possible so they can get on to the next commercial?

Well, I can't deny that status. On the other hand, I ain't alone in that either....lol.

This thing is so darned funny, but true at the same time. It is amazing what great points that can be made through humor.

So what are the kinds of things that you hate about the way that weather gets reported. I mean, other than their lack of accuracy....lol. I really hate the vague terms that these birds have developed over the years. I mean really ..... what exactly are "snow flurries"? Does that term tell me whether I am going to have problems on the roads? It like when they say scattered snow showers. What the heck does that mean? Am I going to have to schedule in plowing the driveway or not? Then there is the "slight possibility of showers". What the heck, is it going to rain or not. And when they want to tell you about the forecasted temperature, don't be telling me about "intense cold" or "sweltering summer temperatures". Give me the darned forecasted ranges of temperatures and leave all the dramatic descriptors back in your office. Here's what I want: Give me that map that shows the various bands in the area with forecasted levels of snow or rain accumulations. Give me real numbers when it comes to temperatures, and wind levels. Not these theatrical generalizations. Never mind telling me about how exciting the weather is for a meteorologist. I am not one and I don't care. Go back to issuing a predicted % of weather events happening. Rather than just telling me that something might happen somewhere. Don't be wasting my time telling me about what is happening in Oregon or Tallahassee. I don't care. When you flat out mess up, admit it. I have had entire days ruined because of a bogus forecast. At least apologize. Forget the theatrics and dramatizations. I understand that you have ratings to look after, but just pass along the info. If you do that you will have a much shorter forecast and maybe you can slide in a few more ads to make money with ..... lol. Just the facts ma'am. So, how about you folks? You have any hot-buttons about weather reporting?

Oh damn! By the way, in the 4th picture down, is that one of Growalot's posted signs in the back-ground? That isn't the guy she was talking about that puts his stand near her posted line is it? No can't be ..... wrong town .... lol.