Doc

Hi Paul- Welcome aboard. So how do you intend to start? Small game, varmints, deer? Are you looking at beginning with a bow, gun, both? Do you own any guns or archery equipment? Do you have places for target practice? Are you at all familiar or experienced with hunting equipment? Do you have convenient places to hunt? Have you read any books or hunting magazines? Do you have any acquaintances that are into hunting?

Damned moose have no sense of humor!

LOL .... That is something that I have always thought. Imagine hearing that sound of a pump shotgun being racked in the pitch black of the night. I suspect that the next sound you would hear would be the frantic retreat and then someone bailing out through a window, open or not (even if you are on the second story of the house). Likely no shots would ever be fired.

It is amazing how the cost of archery can grow way beyond the price of the bow. So when it comes to accessories, your approach will reflect your own personal buying philosophy. Some guys will simply throw a lot of money at their purchases thinking that if it's expensive it must be the best and necessary. If you can afford that approach, why not? If you can't you have to take a more fundamental approach. When you get past the bow and start getting involved in accessories, it may make sense for a beginner to stay as basic as possible until you experience a need later on. Salesmen have a vested interest in selling you all the bells and whistles possible, and also all the most expensive models of these things. And this is where it gets real difficult because generally there is always some story that goes along with each additional dollar spent, and generally there is some truth and science behind it. The guy may not be lying to you, but what is important to him may never be all that important to you. But at the very beginning, you have no idea what exactly you require. My approach was always to go with the basics and let the other trinkets and gadgets grow on you as you experience a need. Of course that merely reflects my penny-pinching, cheap-skate nature .... ha-ha. But in the end it really winds up to be the choice of the purchaser. Just something to think about before getting bombarded with all the sales pitch.

Well, I have to admit that it is usually me that is super-skeptical about any kinds of surveys and studies, and other types of statistical data that is being sold to the public. There is so much opportunity for skewing inputs to bias outputs toward a specific outcome. However, if the study also fesses up to their short-comings, I tend to view their work with much more credibility that if they were to conceal it. And they were quite forthcoming with the study construction and any potential soft-spots. Also, it helps that there is no real ax to grind here, and the subject matter had no reason for bias. Of course they have to control parameters as best they can, that is not a surprise, and I wouldn't expect any kind of a study not to do that. Overall, it seems like they did as good a job as could be expected. So I am willing to accept some of their conclusions at face value with some of the caveats that they have declared. But yes, you are right, as in any study there are some things that are unaccounted for. I haven't seen a study that didn't. Personal evaluation of the results do have to take flaws into consideration. Nothing new or unique about that.

There is a forum for everything ..... lol. "Broadhead Talk.com" http://www.broadheadtalk.com/broadhead-collectors/691-little-mechanical-history.html had a topic asking about the oldest mechanical broadheads. Following is one of the posts: "So when do you think the first mechanical broadhead was patented and when was the first one manufactured? I am not including a couple of fishheads with movable barbs that preceded the broadhead by a couple of years. Well the first patent was 2,568,417 which was applied for in 1948 and was issued to Beryl Steinbacher on September 18, 1951." Credibility??? well I have no reason to believe that his guy is making this up, so I'll accept it as authentic info. I also found other references to something called the "Hinged Fang", circa 1960...... and others. The point is that apparently mechanical broadheads have been around a long time. But your point is well taken. For a lot of years they were not generally accepted. This study that was started in 1989 probably did not have mechanical broadheads used at the same rate as fixed blades (likely it was not even close), so there is a bias entered into the study because of that when they talk about anything relating to mechanical broadheads vs. fixed blade.

The required stopping power is exactly the same, or at least should be. Law enforcement agencies have the research to show what is required to effectively put down someone intent on doing them harm, and I would assume they are armed accordingly. The home owner should take that kind of defense activity no less seriously than a cop. And I would say whatever their research and guidelines tell them they need, a homeowner would be wise to duplicate. I worry about those who might consider under powering their defenses with .22s. For the same reasons that I do not hunt deer with a .22, I think something much more powerful might be required for a charging crack-crazed wacko and perhaps several of them.

Hopefully, Cuomo's little slight of hand (along with the help of his slimy accomplices) has perhaps caused a lot of gun owners to join some of the various gun advocacy organizations. Hopefully, all of this dishonest anti-gun legislation has caused some discussion that is spreading outside of the normal channels. And hopefully the anger over the activities of the safe act supporters have galvanized some of the solidarity that will translate into voting out these scoundrels. What else needs to be done? Well, there needs to be a huge gun-owner registration drive and an effort to see that gun-owner get to the polls. That is a grass-roots activity that we can all get in on as a one-on-one activity. I think we all know some gun-owners that are known to be totally politically inactive. We need these people to be properly inspired through discussion, and hand led to become active voters . Those who have talent for writing can also get involved in "letters to the editor" newspaper campaigns. There are little things as well as the larger things that can have impacts on this upcoming election. And you are absolutely right, we only have 8 very short months to accomplish the task of the underdog. That sounds like a lot of time, but there is an awful lot of work to do. And by the way to refresh your memory of who the legislators were that stabbed us all in the back, refer to the following thread: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/17272-lest-we-forget/

There has been some great stuff discussed on this thread that should be of interest to a lot of people as well as the OP. I don't think the thread got as much "derailed" as it simply evolved.

Best home defense weapon??? ...... Why not ask the guys whose profession is to take out bad guys inside buildings and elsewhere...... the cops. Are they armed with .22s. I think not. Why not? I think it has to do with putting down potential crazy people and drug frenzied wackos before they take the cop out. Sounds a lot like a home defense situation to me. Same rules and thoughts apply.

Look, if we are going to break out the loin cloths there may be some protests based on visual pollution. Also, the season is going to have to occur at a much warmer part of the year. Also, if done at Letchworth, somebody other than myself is going to have to go down in there to retrieve the deer.

The 1-3/4" is an arbitrary number used by the AMO to account for the distance from the contact point of the hand to the opposite side of the riser. Why didn't they simply use the grip point of the bow handle? ...... Good question. I haven't got a clue, but that is the industry standard, and the way the draw length of a bow is specified when you measure it up and order the bow. Edit Note: Sorry Ncountry beat me to it and already explained this.

What amazes me is all the people who think archery and the compound bow theory began the day they first bought their first bow. My bow, a Matthews, has an 80% let-off and has no draw stops and I know there were a lot of bows of all kinds of makes and models after that bow that had no draw stops. I will not even get into the number of decades worth of bows that I have rebuilt, and modified because frankly, none of that has a thing to do with the answer that I provided and I am not interested in impressing anyone. There was nothing in my explanation that I have invented or concocted, so I am not certain as to why you are getting so huffy that I included such things as force-draw curves, valleys and the wall of the curve. It is not my science. Try not to be so sensitive when you ask a question and then get an answer. I understand it is not necessary to know compound history or the physics of compound bows to work on them, but if I can't use proper terminology and illustrations to provide an answer without you getting all insulted and offended, then please don't ask the question in the first place.

You asked, I answered. I have no knowledge of what you do or do not know about compound bows. Your question indicated that you have limited experience because there is a whole crap-load of bows out there that don't have draw stops. So I answered your question as exactly as possible. I can assure you that my bow and the millions out there like it will not "lock up" no matter how far you draw them back.

But it does satisfy the title of the thread as being the most versatile caliber for NY hunting ..... that is if you were to ignore the word "caliber" .... lol. There's no question that almost any shotgun can effectively take any legally huntable species of bird or animal in the state, and in fact has.

Limited AND inclusive????? In what ways?

The most versatile gun for all species in New York State really isn't a caliber at all. More likely it is specified with a gauge number. It is the shotgun that is the most versatile for killing everything from bunnys to birdies to bears. Hands down, if you want one gun for all occasions, the shotgun is it.

Sorry Bunkie, but I haven't engaged in any of the silly re-runs of arguments for or against crossbows in quite a while. So your comment as usual makes absolutely no sense. As far as I'm concerned it is a done deal and all this endless back and forth arguing has no real point any more, especially that stuff that is on its 23rd go around. The hunting community has decided for the bow hunters what their bow season is going to be turned into, and now it is just a case of sitting back and seeing how it all turns out. Besides, at my stage of life, who the heck cares ..... lol.

To understand what is happening as you draw any compound bow, you have to understand the force-draw curve of the compound bow theory. Here is the shape of a typical compound bow: As you can see, when the draw length has been reached, we hit what is called the wall. That is the point where the cam is no longer supplying any mechanical advantage. At that point, if you go any farther you are pulling directly against the force of the heavy limbs with no assist at all, and it does indeed feel like you have hit a "wall". There is a very short area before the wall that is called the "valley" That is the point of maximum reduction of pull force and is also the bow's "draw length". There is no "locking up" in any of this. It is simply a case of the draw force being dictated throughout the entire stroke of the cam until it no longer provides any mechanical advantage. Then, BAM, you hit the wall of the force draw curve. These force-draw curves vary a bit depending on the manufacturer's cam design, but they all follow that same path of a build up of drawing force to a peak weight and then a reduction of force down to a max reduction of force at your full draw weight. then there is a "null" point. And then no mechanical advantage at all ( full limb draw weight takes over). Without draw stops, you can continue to try to draw, but the force ramps up suddenly, and it becomes quite impossible to go much farther. It is very apparent when you have reached that point and you feel a very distinct "Wall" when you get there. In the "valley" of this curve is where today's bows have located a hard stop that wasn't there in previous designs. So now the idea is to pull against that draw limiter ("draw stop") where before you could actually draw a little less or a little farther and still have the same holding force. You used your anchor and body structure (bow arm length) to establish a natural draw length which was to position yourself in this valley in a consistent way at every shot. Some guys want their draw length to be just into the wall so that it does act as a draw stop to a certain extent, however it is a lot softer than the actual designed in draw stop. Others want to be somewhere in the middle of that valley and rely on a consistent anchor and draw length to find that actual location. At any rate, there is no "locking up" or any other damaging thing that can happen by trying to over-draw a compound, at least not while being drawn under human muscle power. Your cam simply reaches the end of it's useful assistance and you find yourself drawing the entire weight of the limbs. You won't be going much farther (if at all) when that happens.

Here is something you might consider. It would be great for aerial surveillance of the property also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_pack

Are you guys going to re-run all these old worn-out arguments every time the word crossbow comes up? Everybody looks at the bowhunters and whines, "Can't we all just get along .....sniff .... sniff?" How about the rest of you abiding by that same sentiment.

They sure are getting some money from somewhere.

What a great study! Spanning 24 seasons. That kind of duration of a study almost never happens anymore. And the average shot distances, restores my faith in the restraint of bow hunters and their ability to make responsible shot selections.

Yes, there was compound archery before draw stops.....lol. And I'm sure that a whole lot of people are still using them. I know my bow isn't all that old, and if the OP is considering any used bows as he indicated at one point, there is a high likelihood that he will wind up without draw stops, especially on the lower end models. If that winds up to be the case it may be good that he has been told a bit about how to handle the situation.

Actually that is not true. For those that were not interested in merely flaming, it was a very interesting discussion about a lot of the archery jargon that a newcomer should be trying to become acquainted with. There are a lot of things to be learned when people simply stop and read what is trying to be said. I wouldn't hesitate to ask advice here, and have done exactly that on several occasions.