Doc

Why do I bother ..... lol. You don't even read my replies. A d-loop is not all about rearranging your anchor point to suit the d-loop. And what is with all this adjusting of d-loops and releases about. If you put the damn d-loop on there to start with and measure using it and your release, you can simply have the bow set up with the correct draw length without all that nonsense of adjusting this and adjusting that and rearranging your whole anchoring system. Makes sense to me.

I'm not saying whose right or wrong. I'm just saying how it is. If I had an anchor like T-bone (and of course not everyone does), I would probably agree that the string sets the draw length. On the other hand he would probably agree with me that it is foolish to spec out a bow without having all the drawing accessories in place.

That would all be great if everyone used the same anchor. In my case, I use the release as the touch-point at the corner of my mouth. And if there is 1/2" or 3" or whatever of d-loop in front of the calipers, that all shortens the distance of draw accordingly. If I measured up the bow draw length without the d-loop, I would be under-drawing the bow by 1/2 inch when I put one on.

Assuming it is just to get people across, the small john-boat or canoe idea sounds like a good solution. Leave the thing tied securely so floods don't take it away when it's not in use.

Look, I made it as clear as I know how. I can't add anymore. You have to take the time to read and understand what I have already explained. I've given examples and even described an experiment that illustrates all this. Those that do not understand the nature of the force-draw curve on compound bows, and the importance of drawing to a specific location within the valley of that curve will likely never understand my point. Suffice it to say that there is no substitute for measuring the draw length requirements of a bow using exactly the equipment you intend to use. d-loops if you intend to use one, along with the specific release you intend to use. You don't leave out a 1/2" here and 1/2" there and expect the bow to fit you when you get all done. There's no "over-thinking" to it. There simply is a right way and a wrong way to spec out the requirements of a bow.

Let's use your 3" long "D"-loop example. exaggeration does make the point easier to visualize. If your set up does not accommodate that 3" distance into your bow's draw length measurement, when you do eventually put it on, you will find that at full draw, you are 3" short of the bow's valley. At that point, if you have bought a bow of a given draw length and didn't accommodate that 3", there is nothing to "tweak". It simply will be the wrong draw length for the archer. Everything you add between the string and the anchor effects the bow's draw length requirement. It makes no sense to buy a bow with a draw length that does not accommodate that. It will wind up anchored at the wrong point in the force-draw curve. You can demonstrate how it all works. Take your current bow set-up and add a 3" extension between your d-loop and your release. Now pull back your bow. It will be immediately obvious that you have just changed your draw length when you realize that you're no where near the valley of your cams. Nothing is more critical than a bow's draw length. When you are at full draw, using an established repetitive, consistent anchor that satisfies your form, the last thing you want is to find that you are not holding in the valley of the force curve. There is no tweaking. It's either right, or it's wrong.

What kind of current do you have during the spring run-off. You may be surprised at the kind of force current-driven ice can exert on bridge pilings. Any supports anchored out in the middle will have to be driven very deep into the creek bottom. What would be the use of the bridge, just for foot traffic, or ATV, or something bigger?

I'm not sure what the point would be. Older versions of male turkeys? Is there any documentation that increasing the average age of the male turkeys has any positive effect on the turkey population? I mean there has to be some theory of benefit involved and not just some arbitrary restriction just for restriction's sake..... right?

That was my first thought. To me it looks like a large patch of hide torn off the inside of the leg. Coyote, dog, or maybe just the top of one of those fences in the background.

The trick is aiming with a 3 dimensional mindset. If the animal is quartering, you still know where those two lungs are (or you should). Use that knowledge to make sure your aiming spot will catch both lungs. If the deer is quartering so severely that you cannot guarantee both lungs, wait for a better position. That has always been my rule of thumb and it has never let me down.

Well, I don't know about you, but my anchor point has not changed for quite a few decades. It is not dependent on what is happening out in front. It is a point on my face that I have determined will result in a convenient spot that I know I can repeat consistently. I do not have my anchor point chasing every little change in equipment. So if I maintain a constant anchor point and add something onto my string, the length of the draw cycle of the bow has changed. pretty simple concept. And when measuring draw length, it is something that should be on the bow already.

He won't be missed.

Yes it does. Anything that adds distance from your anchor touch point to the actual string subtracts from the bow's actual draw length. If you don't believe it, imagine a "D-loop" that was 16" long. Not a likely situation but that scenario does illustrate how the actual distance that the bow would be drawn would change assuming that you are not chasing your anchor around to accommodate the loop (which you should not be doing).

Is there anyone doing any standardized bow tests these days? Used to be back in the olden days, a guy named Norb (Norm?) Mulaney used to run some very good machine shot bow tests and measurements and wrote up comparative reports involving force-draw curves, hysteresis, chronographed speeds, flight characteristics and gobs of other technical performance criteria comparisons on a lot of different bows in a magazine called Archery World (not even sure that mag is still being published). I thought that was a pretty good service and was wondering if anyone else was doing that these days. It sure did beat all the Madison avenue verbiage that slants all kinds of information in a million different ways to favor a manufacturer's product. Just curious.

Congratulations on your choice to join the bowhunting community. Understand that you are signing up for an intense training session consisting of some rigorous practice and learning. That's not a problem because most likely, you will find yourself fascinated with the bow and arrow and will likely become a bit fanatic about shooting. My first suggestion would be to find a reputable, successful, bow shop rather than simply looking for bargains at the big box outdoor stores or internet deals. Understand that employees at the archery departments may likely be better at job interviews than actual knowledge. It's not that they are all dummies, but the odds of finding unqualified archery pros at those general all-purpose outdoor stores is extremely high. Also, there are some very good buys on the internet, but what you need is hands on guidance and real assistance. It may feel like you are putting yourself at their mercy, but the first words out of your mouth should be to tell them that you are brand new at archery and need some very basic help. That would probably be a good time to mention what your upper limit is on your purchase. Check out a few catalogs just to see how the prices run. I have no idea what your financial situation is, but I would guess that you might be looking for a middle of the road price range where you have decent quality at a price that won't break the bank. I am assuming that you have no acquaintances that are pretty good archers. If you do, you should pick their brain as much as possible before committing your first dollar. I am going to assume that you are going to be interested in a compound rather than a recurve or longbow. If that is not the case, there is a whole different way of looking for and choosing equipment. So, that is your first decision. Your second decision is to decide whether you will be using a mechanical release or not. This effects your draw length which is super important with a compound bow. If you have decided on a release, you will need to use the specific one that you intend to buy for determining your draw length. You will need the guy at the archery shop to first measure your draw length. I would guess that given the mindset today, I would recommend that you do go with a release. The decision is yours and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will argue against starting with a release. But the decision is really yours to make. A release is an aid to a more consistent arrow launch, and I would guess that the greater percentage of archers find it a useful accessory. I am recommending that draw length be established by actually having you draw with a marked measuring arrow rather than some of the less reliable "rule of thumb" kinds of ways to determine draw length. And by the way, along with the release, most guys are shooting a "D-loop" on the string. That also effects draw length. So that should be installed also when measuring draw length. While he is measuring your draw length, it is a good time to have him suggest an anchor point and have him watch how you draw to look for signs of over-bowing (too much draw weight to handle). Your ability to draw more poundage after you have shot for a short while while will change upward, so whatever bow poundage you and he agree on should be the lower range of the bows adjustability. Make sure he is commenting on your form, and the way that you are handling the bow. That first visit should feel as much like an archery lesson as it feels like equipment purchase. Make sure he understands that this is what you are looking for. That completes the initial info that you and he need for bow selection. Now comes the arrow selection. From the draw weight decision and the draw length measurements, he can recommend some arrows. The material of the arrows is another opinion based decision, and you will get as many different answers as those who offer their opinions. Check out the prices of the different materials and find one that fits your budget. At this point, I would guess that he will start running through a few bows that he has in stock so that you can shoot a few of them, and get the feel of what feels natural to you, and smooth to draw, and relatively quiet on release. Once you have decided on a bow, have him finish off the custom set up. You may consider using a peep sight and a bow sight. try not be too traumatized with sticker shock with these accessories. These guys really know how to charge for each little trinket. Oh, I didn't mention looking up a good book on archery just to familiarize yourself with terminology when talking to the shop owner. I know that I must have forgotten a bunch of things, but this ought to be a good start for others to add on to or offer their own viewpoints. I should also add that it would be a good idea to shoot for about a half hour to an hour before taking your rig home just to check for infant mortality types of problems. One other thought..... I know there are those that will say to let the guy at the bow shop spend all this time getting you all figured out and measured up, and then take that info to the nearest computer and order at the place with the best price. Out of courtesy to the bow-pro, that probably would not be the most ethical thing to do. I would not do that. On your next purchase (and I'm absolutely sure that some day there will be another one....lol), feel free to go anywhere that you want, but if this guy has spent a decent amount of time on you and performed a proper level of service, it is the right thing to do to make your purchase there. Also if things go wrong, you will have a throat to grab if need be hopefully just a short drive from home. Ok guys ...... What did I leave out? What do you disagree with? What would you all recommend differently? I think this was a good starting point.

Yup! That's woodpecker work. The bad news is that you know he wasn't just doing that for exercise. That tree has some sort of infestation.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but my understanding was that it was to be like a Bass-pro/Cabelas style store. But I don't know where I got that idea. Perhaps just wishful thinking.....lol.

I have heard stories of guys emptying their guns into the ground, stepping off their treestand platforms and doing all kinds of wild things. It is a crazy affliction that as far as I know, has no real psychological explanation.

Long shots do have a place on the archery range. They are just plain fun, and as mentioned, long shots can build confidence and actually improve shorter more realistic hunting shots because of that confidence. I love to take 80 yard shots on a range, and as a matter of fact 80 yards is one of the distances required on an NFAA Field Round. That's not a real easy shot, but it is fun to just sit back and watch the arrow arc up and eventually get to the target. Most archers are doing well to simply hit the butt, and these would be archers who do shoot on a regular basis. Actually that shot can be pretty humbling even for the better archers, but it is still always fun.

What on earth is the Henrietta Gander Mountain going to do when a real store (Field and Stream) comes to town. I guess they have two choices. Either straighten up their act and make it a real competition, or just close their doors and give up the Rochester area. I'd like to see the two of them fight it out.

Good old buck fever..... It can strike at any time and in a whole bunch of different ways. Even with all my years of deer hunting, a couple of years back, during bow season, I experienced a rather weird physical reaction to a huge buck that actually was a bit scary. I had a buck come out of a very thick brushy area at about 30 yards. He was just beyond the area that I had cleared for a 20 yard shot, so while I could see him clearly, there was no shot available. He traveled about 15 yards broadside in front of me, heading for the edge of an old field with absolutely no chance of a shot. Then he turned around and went back to the heavy brush that he originally came out of. Then he turned around and headed back toward the field again. Back and forth he went, each time passing the little trail that could have led him right in front of me at 20 yards. A couple of times he actually turned and started to come onto that trail that would have put him on my side of that light brush screening that was protecting him. He kept plaguing me like that for about 15 or 20 minutes. Under those circumstances, that was an eternity. I could feel the excitement getting out of control as he worked me into a wacked out case of buck fever. At one point I had to actually concentrate on calming myself down by looking away for a bit. I was actually getting quite light headed, and that got me a bit concerned. That was a scary reaction that I have never experienced before or since. In the end, he simply went back into the heavy brush and never came back out. I honestly believe that if he had come out into the open, I would have had a hard time actually getting the shot off. Seriously, that extended length of super high tension had me damn near paralyzed. Normally, these things happen so fast that none of the excitement gets a chance to work me into the state that I was in. But this particular back and forth nonsense really had me worked up into a serious case of buck fever. So, what is the most peculiar case of buck fever with strange reactions, that any of you have experienced or heard of?

Before you attempt to side-track the discussion with the idea of anyone putting legal limits on range, let me point out that no one has even hinted at that.

I have a copy of that video, and for me that was the first time I had ever seen actual video documentation of "string jumping" as well. It is a pretty darn undeniable picture. Since that time, I have seen a lot of video examples of just how quick deer reactions are like ...... Almost fly-like.....lol. As much as people want to treat archery equipment like firearms, there is always the unmistakable video evidence that brings all this back to reality.

This discussion reminds me of an engineer I used to work with who was able to consistently keep his arrows in a coffee-cup sized group at 60 yards. But when a deer was in front of him, he dinged and wounded and lost more deer than anyone I've ever known. In one season, he wounded and lost 5 separate deer. His shots all averaged right around that 60 yard distance, and no matter how many people told him to limit that distance, he continued to wound deer, trying to shoot out to his maximum practice range proficiency. It became so exasperating that I started to avoid any hunting conversations with him because I knew he would just list off another string of recently wounded deer because of his bull-headedness. I imagine that all these years, he's likely been continuing stuffing arrows into deer parts that were never intended to be hit. He was deadly on the practice range with stationery targets but never seemed to recognize that there is a lot more to connecting on live animals than just maxing out his abilities every time out. Some people just never do get it. He simply was just another of those hard-heads that didn't care about his reputation for screwing up or that his stubbornness was being paid for by the animals he was hunting and wounding.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone being called any names .... that's for starters. Secondly, yes, I am for putting limits on bowhunters.....self imposed limits of logic and conscience. The thought of people out there with no limits on shot selection is a frightening one regardless of weapon used. And yes, those kinds of attitudes left unchallenged do usually result in a huge disservice to the sport of bowhunting. Third, I believe that those who don't speak out when they feel advice is crossing the line, are just as bad as those that peddle that misleading nonsense in forums or anywhere else. If you are a person of principle, you cannot let irresponsibility and irresponsible statements stand unchallenged. Fourth, it has to be acknowledged that we do have young or inexperienced beginning bowhunters who really don't need to be misled by wild statements of expectation. Here again, to just sit back and let mis-information pass on to beginners is as bad as the person making such bogus statements. Fifth, your theoretical formula for setting your limits based on what you can do on an archery range with static and controlled conditions that in no way represent real hunting situations, completely ignores all the potential uncontrollable variables that have been pointed out no fewer than a half dozen times each on this thread alone. Ignoring those may be convenient, but gives a very misleading picture of real capabilities.