Doc

Interesting observation. And then add to it that the time of year is such that the deer are in a food deprived state, it sure does seem like we are baiting the deer onto the roads. Maybe it's another herd population control program ..... lol.

That is what was great about Mulaney's tests. They were all done with standardized, machine-shot, tests with charted results. He did keep it to an apple-to-apples method of comparison. His tests were primarily about performance and not the touchy-feely judgments. Yes, he did have his little editorial comments about smoothness and feel, but the meat of his tests involved force draw curves and speeds and trajectories and that sort of information. It did give you a pretty good idea of what bows were the dogs of the industry and which ones were putting their research money where their mouths were. I will agree that the best tests are actually shooting them, but there are so many different bow manufacturers and models to chose from that it really is kind of nice to step into the bow shop having a list of leading contenders. It kinds of keeps you from irritating a bow shop owner with a full day of bow trials .... lol. Plus it was just fun to be up on the performance of all the new entries into the market. I really do miss these tests and I was just wondering if anyone had taken over his work.

Let me just ask this one more question. What are you physically using as a draw check that tells you to stop drawing the string if you are not using a physical touch-point as an anchor. And don't just say "the bow's draw length". I am talking about the physical feel or sensory trigger that tells you this is far enough. Here's what I am getting from your explanation. I am picturing that you are using the feel of the wall of the force/draw curve to tell you to stop drawing back, and the anchor (which is not really an anchor) is mere the default location. I will assume that you have the bow set up to make that happen when the nock is aligned with your eye. Is that what you are saying? I am only asking because what I am getting from your explanation is perhaps the most bizarre set-up that I have ever heard described. And frankly, you really have my curiosity going. I have been around archers all my life, and have encountered an awful lot of them, and it has always been that you chose a repeatable, consistent anchor somewhere on your face and the bow's draw length was chosen to accommodate that. I know that I am dragging out this discussion a lot longer than I should, but I am always open to learning new things and new ways of doing things, and I must admit that this part of the discussion has really piqued my interest.

Calm down Bunkie. For crying out loud, you post a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying and you think that I didn't notice that you aren't even reading what I said. Now I do have a lot of time these days, but I still don't feel right wasting it on someone who is not even listening to the responses. Now I'm not going to get involved in your "holier than thou" comments and other little cutesy quips. I don't have time for that either. I simply think that it would be better just to simply skip trying to converse with you on this subject any longer because a one-side conversation isn't really all that interesting.

"Let me ask you this, assuming accessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter?" Yes "Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him?" That's a little tougher question because I have seen pros use all kinds of anchors. I have never seen the one back by the ear yet .... lol. I do think that comfort and super-consistent repeatability is the major requirement of an anchor. Not that it's relevant, but my anchor puts the calipers of the release at the corner of my mouth. "Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that. Here is where we have to slow down and pay very close attention to what is being said: I think you are doing an excellent job of convincing me that adjusting for a D-loop addition by changing anchor is not a real smart option. So a bow that has been measured up without using a D-loop should not be counting on an anchor change to compensate when the bow is finally accessorized with a D-loop later .... right? With exactly the proper anchor as you have described, you have just lost 1/2" of pull of the string when you do add the D-loop .... right? Sounds to me like the string is no longer being pulled back to the previous anchor (The D-loop is, but the string is 1/2" in front of the D-loop), and therefore is not rolling the cams over quite as far as they did when you weren't using the D-loop. Am I right so far? Now, doesn't that mean that the cams have not rotated all the way back to the valley like it used to when you had no D-loop? Your draw length has not changed. The bow's design draw length has not changed. But the bows reaction to that same draw length is now pulling the string 1/2" shorter than it did without the D-loop. The bow is not functioning in the part of the valley that I want it to any more, is it? Now what do I do? I shouldn't really change my anchor. It is in the optimum location. I can't shorten my D-loop any more. I'm down to a 1/2 inch already. I can play with the length of my release but if I don't move my anchor, all that does is move my elbow and hand back 1/2" further. If that anchor doesn't move, I will never get that 1/2" back that the D-loop cost me. Am I correct so far? Wouldn't it have been great if the bow had been ordered with a measure length that considered that 1/2" loop in the first place? Ok guys. There is my best shot at justifying measuring draw length with the D-loop installed. Where am I wrong?

All these tweaks and adjustments and even changes in anchor are simply trying to alter things to re-match your personal draw length back to the bow's as-purchased draw length after changes in equipment have forced you to do so ...... right?

best non-answer we have had on this thread so far. look, you aren't even reading my replies. That answer isn't even relative to anything in my quote. This conversation is not really being taken seriously or even being responded to. I am wasting my time with someone who doesn't even read replies or care what the discussion is even about. I really shouldn't be doing that.

I am not the expert on what all shops in NYS do. I'll leave you with that title ....lol. And even if this is not done, that does not mean that it shouldn't. Maybe shop owners don't want to take the time for extra steps. Maybe they feel that extra 1/2" is insignificant. Maybe they don't even know that a D-loop will be put on the string? Maybe they are thinking that whatever you decide to put on your bow is your problem. Maybe they are assuming that you will fiddle-fart around with your anchor or your release length or do whatever nonsense you have to do to make things work for you. I am not a mind reader. Frankly your question is irrelevant as to whether it is a good idea to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow. But why is it that you will not (cannot?) point to the flaws in my set-up/measuring procedure? Why aren't you telling me why it is wrong and where it will lead to improper results and problems? Why is it a problem to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow? Try answering a few questions for a change instead of just saying, "Well gosh it simply isn't done".

And you are assuming that it is not. Look, this is not a popularity contest. You have 4 guys thinking one way and just about as many or more that agree with what I am saying. So what? does that make one position any more correct than the other? This isn't a majority rules discussion ..... lol. I am waiting to hear somebody, anybody, explain what part of my set-up procedure they disagree with and why. I hear a lot of, "Well, jeez, that's just not the way it is done". I don't hear anyone saying, "that simply is the wrong way to go, and here is where that will get you in trouble". Why is that? Why would anyone spec out a bow's requirements only using some of the components that those requirements rely on? Have a go at explaining that to me.

Just make sure that when you leave either side, that boat is securely fastened to something substantial and pulled up high and dry on the bank.

Yes, a plea of this sort works as a wakeup call for those that would just as soon not see them in the bow season. But thanks for the reminder .... lol.

I can imagine the home intruder hearing, "Oh damn!! the battery in the watch went dead".

Come on .... you don't have a clue what most bowshops do. But tell me, what part of that process do you think should not be done and why? Would you do any less? If you intended to use a release and a D-loop, would you simply walk up to a bow and wrap your 3 fingers around the string, yank it back and have somebody measure your draw length and then order the bow accordingly? Close enough .... right? How sloppy are you when you spec out your own bow requirements?

Ha! it has just suddenly occurred to me that you guys are more interested in creating your little insults than you are in actually reading what is being said and attempting to understand anything. It really is hard (more likely impossible) to have a serious conversation with somebody who has absolutely no interest in understanding what is being said to them.

Here is the fact that is not being grasped ..... the bow is designed with a force draw curve that is meant for a certain draw length. Archers are sized such that their draw length is different from one archer to the other. The trick is to get the purchased bow's draw length to be the same as the archers personal draw length. It really is that simple. The archer's draw length needs to be established with all the equipment implemented that he intends to use, or he will be either set up with the draw-length bow, or will be involved in tweaking this and adjusting that after he becomes dissatisfied with the set-up. Since he is a new archer, buying all this equipment, that really shouldn't be much of a hardship for him or the shop owner.

Frankly, if I were putting good money into a new bow, I would go into the bow-shop and tell the guy hand me a bow with a D-loop already installed, and give me that release over there, I'll pull it back and you measure me up for draw length and order a bow of that draw length. That's the kind of thing that the OP was asking about and that was my recommendation. I would not recommend that anyone be measured up for draw length with known elements of that length being left out. Why on earth would I do that? I do not want to start off by changing this and adjusting that. Just put the stuff on there and get it right the first time. Why does that concept confuse anybody?

The force draw curve does not change, your ability to reach it is what changes when you add in the D-loop unless you correspondingly increase your anchor point to compensate. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand. Are you trying to tell me that you could add as much D-loop as you wanted and never have it upset your established anchor point, and still approach the same point on the curve? Come on. As an instant replay, go back to the exaggerated 3" D-loop example discussed a while ago and tell me where you would be on the force draw curve if you didn't change your anchor? If that don't do it for you imagine a 12" D-loop. At some point it all has to come clear to you.

You never do really add anything to any conversations on here do you? When you don't know what is being discussed, flame away. It's too bad that we always have to wade through your nonsense every time we try to have an intelligent discussion. But, that's just the nature of internet forums there are always a certain number of members that just get their kicks out of that sort of thing.

First of all I'm not sure they don't. Second of all, you have to ask for it to be done. And third, perhaps a lot of people don't consider that 1/2 inch to be significant. Myself, I am very picky on where that wall is when I am at full draw. Maybe too picky in the estimation of some people. But then I am the customer and when I walk out of that shop, I want the bow exactly perfect for my use.

First of all, I start out with the premise that anchor points are chosen for reasons other than to satisfy accessories. A person chooses that anchor point for reasons of repeatability and consistency and should not be chasing it around your face to make some piece of added equipment work. Draw length refers to the pressure point of the bow handle, plus 1.75" back to the furthest point of the drawn string ..... not a D-loop, but the string. That point usually corresponds to your anchor point. That is the way the cam systems are designed and set up on the bow to get that furthest point on the drawn string winding up at a specific place in the valley of the force/draw curve. If you add some additional unit (D-loop or whatever) between that furthest point on the drawn string, something has to be adjusted to make that original draw length of the bow wind up in the same point in the valley of the force/draw curve. It is just simple physics. If you take a closed force system and then add 1/2" into it, something has to be readjusted or the system is wrong. Now if you are willing to give up your anchor (a bad idea in my opinion) and draw back an extra 1/2" to accommodate the extra 1/2" of D-loop, then you can use the same draw length settings. I'm saying you are in an archery shop. They can put the D-loop on when determining your required bow draw length. The release you have decided on is there so you can use that during the measurement, so why not do it?

There it is, the point that seems to be getting missed. Changing an anchor point is major, and it really should not be done to accommodate a D-loop. And if you are using your release as the anchor contact point, and you add something between the release and the string, you are lessening the amount that the string is being pulled back. And that is putting your entire bow system at a different point on the force/draw curve. It really is that simple. Your bow's draw length has to be adjusted to accommodate that. So why not set up the bow's draw length with that variable already installed? It really is a very simple concept to understand if people would take the time to actually read what I am saying.

In my case, I use the forward tip of the release as the corner of the mouth contact point. So other than moving the position of my hand, it probably wouldn't effect me. That is with my particular anchor. Other styles of anchor may be effected. That is why I keep saying that all of this stuff should be in place when measuring bow draw length. Even things that do not have obvious impacts, things that you may not even understand how they could possibly impact bow draw length should be installed. As I said before, bow draw length is one of the most important features when you spec out a bow. Why take a chance by leaving anything out. Bows are too damned expensive to be simply "winging" it.

Why do I bother ..... lol. You don't even read my replies. A d-loop is not all about rearranging your anchor point to suit the d-loop. And what is with all this adjusting of d-loops and releases about. If you put the damn d-loop on there to start with and measure using it and your release, you can simply have the bow set up with the correct draw length without all that nonsense of adjusting this and adjusting that and rearranging your whole anchoring system. Makes sense to me.

I'm not saying whose right or wrong. I'm just saying how it is. If I had an anchor like T-bone (and of course not everyone does), I would probably agree that the string sets the draw length. On the other hand he would probably agree with me that it is foolish to spec out a bow without having all the drawing accessories in place.

That would all be great if everyone used the same anchor. In my case, I use the release as the touch-point at the corner of my mouth. And if there is 1/2" or 3" or whatever of d-loop in front of the calipers, that all shortens the distance of draw accordingly. If I measured up the bow draw length without the d-loop, I would be under-drawing the bow by 1/2 inch when I put one on.