Doc

You seem to be oblivious as to just how arrogant your message sounded. Maybe you had better read it again yourself.

Lol .... I just love those that champion the government's love affair with behavior modification of the masses. Some just can't get enough of it. They probably would have been supporters of any of history's more noteable dictators. It's pretty much the same mentality.

Actually, leaving it for other critters is a beneficial way of recycling the remnants. Why not? I do understand the idea of not plopping it in front of non-hunters, but there are a lot of places away from hiking trails and such where nobody will have to trip over it. When you think about it, I really don't go out of my way to hide the gut-pile. Within a day or two, it will disappear, and a few animals will head into winter with just a little more reserve in their tank.

This year, I will be wiring it to a tree down in the thicket in front and use it for coyote and fox bait.

LOL .... Sure does get awful deep in here at times. I love that pronouncement that "I will shoot no deer before it's time. I am a super hunter and you are crap! I can see through leaves and around trees and have never made a mistake in my life. Deer just naturally stop and pose with their antlers in just the right position so I can count each individual tine on each antler. What is your problem? Why can't you be perfect like me?"

I know some people that seem to be just natural shooters,and can pick up their bows for the first time at a point just days before the season and be right back in the groove almost instantly. As for myself, I have to work at it, so my practice has to be almost constant year around. Bowhunting can be a demanding activity. I have developed so many target panic maladies that it sometimes gets almost comical. But I don't worry too much about what other people are doing. I have a big enough job keeping my own shooting under control. I can remember a couple of seasons that had to be started late because a sudden case of violent flinches reared its ugly head. I won't go out until I feel my shooting is under control. Others do what they think they have to, and it's not my concern. Equipment changes .... I agree, if equipment has been stored properly I can see no reason for anything to move that didn't move the previous season. However, equipment failures can happen at any time regardless of practice frequency. I had a string blow up a couple of weeks back. It turned out to be an aluminum "D"-loop that let go and turned into a dry-fire that had the upper limb whipping past my head. Now there is something that happened even after frequent practice sessions over many months. Practice didn't help me much there. So the message is that I try to apply the practice that I need to assist my consistancy. Others may or may not need that level of practice. I refuse to police the rest of the world, or work myself into some kind of rage over their level of practice. That's not my job ..... lol.

As a matter of fact, I mis-read the article. The bad news that they were trying to convey from the standpoint of the DEC proposal apparently is that they do not have it in their power to just arbitrarily change the regulation but they must go to the legislature for this particular change. The article eventually said that no legislation has been introduced in the Senate or Assembly. There was no explanation as to why that was. So apparently, if they can find a sponsor, the proposal still lives.

If you want to take the time and invest a bit of effort to go back through previous threads that involve this subject, you will find several items that I have specifically suggested that would have far more impact than special youth hunts. You will also find that I have repeated them a few times to try to catch the attention of those determined to ignore them. I have already gone through all that and I have come to see the futility in trying to change closed minds by offering alternative ideas. Most rabid advocates of the youth hunt don't really like anybody suggesting alternative, more effective methods, so they quickly have changed the subject and moved around those things. They find it distracting from their locked in ideas and not particularly useful in their campaign. I also will say that I have written many letters to the DEC forwarding those suggestions on to the agency that supposedly has the power to implement them or some variation of them. Also, I have taken every opportunity to talk to DEC personel at public meetings and discuss alternative ideas. So as far as walking the walk, I guess I do. These suggestions involved DEC programs and activities in the schools and increased project activity from rod and gun clubs, etc. I will not be repeating any of that stuff on here again, as apparently it bothers some. Besides, that is getting tiresome and is absolutely useless because those that have their minds made up will skip over it all again. So anyway, it is all here somewhere in the archives, and available to those who are truly interested enough to look it up. But as far as going over all of that even one more time, I am done with it. The thoughts that I came up with are nothing amazing or involve any deep thinking. I would suggest that anyone willing to open their minds a crack could easily come up with them on their own. The problem is that people tend to grab on to the idea that's provided to them (right or wrong) and that's right where their thinking and innovation ends. You can't fight human nature.

Thank God I don't really hang out with those kind of people. So, I haven't run into any of that. Anybody I know or hunt with understand that I would turn them in for that kind of thing. But, I'm sure that it does happen someplace.

It would appear that revising the set-back rules for shooting a bow from 500' to 150' has hit the crapper, according to an article in New York Outdoor News. Although Using them as a credible source has not really panned out all that great lately .... lol. This was another 5-year deer management plan item that I didn't agree with. I understand what they were trying to accomplish, but my gosh, 50 yards from an occupied building? .... really? That's a bit close. I think that sometimes it is a good thing to take some matters out of the DEC's hands. This certainly is a case where smarter heads prevailed (even if they were political....lol).

You don't get anything. And for somebody complaining about my repeating things you definitely must have some kind of comprehension problem because seem to be asking questions and making statements that show you haven't got a clue about anything that I have repeated over and over for you. I can't repeat it any more for you. I can't make it any clearer.

I don't think you have a clue as to other more meaningful things that will make a significant difference because (speaking of blinders) you are 100% invested in this feel-good scheme and haven't spent a single additional moment thinking about any other solutions. It takes somebody such as myself to look beyond the flaws of current thinking to invest the effort of innovation. Unfortunately your situation is the same as the DEC with committment to only one plan and absolutely no plan B's. You have grabbed on to this one insignificant plan and just like the DEC are falsely feeling fine about having solved the recruitment problem. I personally don't go for concessions. I would hold the DEC's feet to the fire until they come up with real significant plans. You apparently are easier satisfied.

My God man, do you ever read my posts at all? No, I am not going to repeat it all again just because some decide to read only a line or two. In fact no less that adozen times I have described in painful detail what my objections are to this feel-good window-dressing activity are. For crying out loud ..... look it up! Frankly, I don't really care what people have forced themselves to do whether they hunt the Northern Zone or the Southern Zone or some other state. I'm telling you that I simply don't care to hunt with sweat running down my back and mosquitoes banging into my face and a short time clock on recovering downed game. If you have come to love that sort of thing, good for you. Some how I suspect I'm not alone in that.

Interesting articles. They really get into the demographics, but were not too specific on the hunter population trends other than that they still agree that the hunter population is continuing to age. They definitely massage the data don't they?

Of course the youth season will not impact anyone's bowhunt. At 8000 participants statewide, it will pretty much be a non-event. As far as whether I use the new "replaced" days or not, your right. Just like any hunting days, I will use or not use them at my discretion. And your point is? That's the way it has always been with decisions made as to whether weather conditions were not suitable or not. This is no different except the replaced days are more likely to be unsuitable as I pointed out above. It is still true that we got screwed out of days that were more likely to be suitable to any kind of deer hunting and given back days when conditions will likely be a bit more difficult. The actual context of my comments that you chose to ignore related to the statement made that I should feel "happy" that we got those additional days of hunting. I don't have to feel "happy" about having good hunting days removed and replaced with summer-like days. If you are happy about that, I'm happy for you..... lol.

And simply because you keep repeating that it is working in other states doesn't make it so. Yes, they do successfully hold youth gun hunts. If that is your measure of success then I will grant that you can force anything to happen even if it is an insignificant meaningless act and call it a success based on that. And if it makes you feel good, then that is about as much as you can expect. Maybe that makes it a success in your mind. Sorry, but I am looking for something that actually makes a difference in the hunter bottom line numbers. And last time I heard those numbers nationally were still going down even in all those states that hold special youth hunts.

Yes, which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way you choose to look at it, it was a flat out dumb move. Sorry, but there is simply no kinder way of putting it. The way I see it, they took time away from bowhunters when they went to the Saturday opener. They simply were giving it back plus a bit more. That was payback. Unfortunately they took away some prime time and gave us back some crap. I have no reason to be happy about the "give-back" yet. I was ok with the way it was, and it is yet to be seen how enjoyable this warmer, potentially bug-infested, leaf-clogged, early start really turns out to be. But apparently there are a whole lot of bowhunters that think it's some kind of wonderful thing. I'll be able to say more about that when I have sampled a bit of it. But right now it is a bit premature to say what "I should be happy about".

Not if we are fooled into thinking we have done something significant. I'm not much of a believer in window-dressing. I firmly believe that it stifles real solutions.

As far as the safety issues, that is a non-issue. Nobody likes to see firearms deer hunting in bowseason (with the possible exception of gun hunters....lol) but really with an estimated total of 8000 participants statewide, I have a hard time considering the whole affair as being of much significance from any standpoint, safety, effectiveness, or otherwise. And we have already gone through the argument about good weather and again, if you think it is a good thing to fool kids into thinking that hunting is a warm-weather activity, then I respectfully have to disagree. And while it is nice that deer are calm, I think it is obvious and generally accepted among hunters that more deer are seen on the opening day of gun season than any other time of the year. The actual harvest numbers show that to be true also. So again, Has anybody ever heard a good explanation why the DEC chose to stuff the youth season right into the bow season .... that makes any sense?

By the way, I agree that it is a done deal now and that we are arguing over something that is unlikely to change. But my biggest fear is that it will be generally accepted that the DEC has done something significant here and all future thoughts relative to real, serious, constructive, efforts to remedy recruitment problems will cease as we all go on our merry way patting ourselves on the back and thinking the problem is solved. The supposed solution is cast in stone, but the effectiveness of it is very much in question and logic tells me that we simply have applied feel-good window dressing to a problem that needs some real innovation and serious brain-storming of new ideas. But if we should stop debating the DEC solution, we feed into that mentality that all is now well. I really don't want to see that happen.

Lol .... With all due respect, was there some kind of answer to my question about mentors buried in all that? How those questions relate to my comments about the flow of information and rumors beats the hell out of me. I guess that was just a random shot aimed at who knows what. And was there something over the past two years where the DEC explained about where these mysterious mentors were going to come from when they are so obviously missing during the regular season? I must have missed it. As far as the bowhunters becoming the mentors, It seems to me that they have simply removed a large percentage of them as mentors by making them choose between their season and the gun mentoring. Have they changed the law about bowhunting alongside of someone possessing a firearm? So that comment didn't make a whole lot of sense did it? No more than placing the youth season inside of a bow season did. The weather argument? .... well we have already done that one multiple times, but if you insist that kids need to be fooled about the comfort levels of hunting season, September provided a whole month of nice toasty weather. The holiday argument? .... just another date when there are all kinds of family activities competing with a youth hunt that wouldn't have to be dealt with on a normal weekend. So let me amend my question a bit: Has anybody ever heard a good explanation why the DEC chose to stuff the youth season right into the bow season .... that makes any sense? Look, I have been known to be a bit of an apologist for the DEC too on occasion. But when they screw up, I am quick to comment on that too. But DEC or no DEC, I am still looking for someone to stop dodging the question about where they think all these mentors will be coming from. It's a serious question and nobody seems to have an answer.

Well, I can see that you are locked into that assertion, so it's useless and a complete waste of time to continue arguing the point. Better we should talk about something that you can be a little more objective about .... lol.

You are talking about intentional poaching. I am talking about mis-identification of what can be a very confusing and misleading picture of antler set-up. Big difference.

Anybody who tells me that point counting on deer antlers in the wild is an exact activity probably is more interested in bending a discussion a bit than actually being honest about their actual observations. And I don't care whether it is a 4-point or a 12-point I have not met anyone who is as infallible at counting points as you are trying to claim. It' s not just a case of being able to count up to 3 points on the rack. That has absolutely nothing to do with the law. The law says they have to all be on the same beam. As to your assertion that such a thing cannot be a mistake, I simply think you are wrong. By the way, regarding the safety aspect of it, I will say that because you cannot make out whether that third tine is on the same beam as the other two, doesn't mean that a human looks like a deer .... lol. That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How a deer orients it's head is a long way from being a safety issue.

A deer holding it's head sideways poses a tangle of points that unless the deer is super-close can confuse the hunter as to whether all three points are on the same antler. I have seen it more times than not on smaller bucks. Now granted, if you ignore the law and only shoot bucks that have more than 3 points per side, and tines that are large enough to not be mistaken, you can improve your chances of not misreading what you think you are seeing. But that is not the law, or the intent of the law. And people should not be in a made to over-extend the law just to ensure that they are not turned into poachers. That's the only point I am making. It is sloppy lawmaking, and is not as liberal as some try to make it out to be. And for those that claim that there will be some honest mistakes left rotting in the woods, they are exactly right.