Doc

Yeah, it was pretty weird that right out of the blue NYON decided to run this article right on the front page like it had some timely value. And then at the very end, they finally tell you that it hasn't even moved to the legislature. They must be a bit tight for things to write about. I will say that I sense from the reaction on this thread that when it does come around, it may have a pretty difficult time. It doesn't sound terribly popular. And, I can imagine how the non-hunters will feel about it.

And the point that you are refusing to acknowlege is that the "mistake" part of all that is the deer that you are sure of that turns out to be something other than what you would have sworn it was. And I still maintain that there are circumstances where a tine or two from the far antler appear to be on the forward antler or vice versa. I have seen that happen, and was only shown the error of what I was "positive of" when the deer happened to turn it's head. And this kind of thing is so much easier to do on the smaller antlered deer, which coincidentally are the deer that the law is trying to distinguish between. Sure, I know the answer is simply don't shoot the smaller deer .... lol. Well then, be honest and write the law that way instead of monkeying around trying to make poachers out of people that normally wouldn't be.

You wouldn't want to see me working on anything mechanical. It's not a pretty sight. My attempts generally wind up costing me more than if I take the stuff to a shop full of factory trained people. I have absolutely no patience, and a whole lot of destruction can result. I do pretty good on bows, but that is about my limit.

How about the mentors that really could use a mentor themselves .... lol. Sorry ... just kidding.

Yeah, I had a few trailcam pictures of Betty the Yeti, but something happened to the files and I lost them all. You'll just have to take my word for it.

I'm not trying to demonize anybody .... seriously. It's just that there are some here (yourself included) that simply love to see citizens controlled. You cannot give up freedoms fast enough. And it is difficult not to compare today's champions of that kind of thinking with the mentality of some of the more noteworthy historical believers in government public behavior modification. I'm sorry if that hit a sensitive spot but I do believe that your kind of mentality definitely has been over-played in this country for way too many decades and probably should not go unchallenged.

I think the safety aspect probably is blown a bit out of proportion, but I do think there are some questions regarding that. First of all, is an honest question that I really don't know the answer to. Exactly how close are the mentor and youth hunter required by law to be? Within reach? Within sight? Within reach of their voice? Within so many yards? How exactly do they define "being with" when it comes to mentors and their hunter. That does relate to just how much control the mentor has over shot selection and safety issues involving that. I know that if I am out there on those days of the youth hunt, I will be very well covered in blaze orange. The question is, am I going to be the tiny minority of bowhunters who actually do this? That also relates to the safety issue. Another question that I really don't have any answer to is how effective is blaze orange when all the leaves are on the trees. I was walking around the hill the other day, and I have to admit that I couldn't really see any great distances through the woods. I have only seen the effectiveness of BO in the woods after all the trees and bushes have lost all their leaves. The damned stuff really works amazingly well. What I really don't know is how well it works when distant vision is blocked out with leaves. I've never had occasion to actually check that out. You guys up north maybe have some insight into that if you have actually seen a lot of guys wearing BO in the woods before leaf-fall. I can't say that I have any idea.

Not to turn this into a blaze orange thread (perhaps others already have), but in case there is any confusion, anytime there is anyone gun hunting for deer, I will be wearing a very significant amount of blaze orange regardless of what ever else I am doing. That would include bow hunting, or cutting firewood, or any other activity in areas where such gun deer hunting might be taking place. In my case that includes waking down my driveway to get the mail. It seems to be the intelligent thing to do, and I do value my hide a bit more than I worry about some kind of fashion statement. And I also will say that if I feel that I do not have the appropriate BO garment for the situation, I simply will stay home.

You seem to be oblivious as to just how arrogant your message sounded. Maybe you had better read it again yourself.

Lol .... I just love those that champion the government's love affair with behavior modification of the masses. Some just can't get enough of it. They probably would have been supporters of any of history's more noteable dictators. It's pretty much the same mentality.

Actually, leaving it for other critters is a beneficial way of recycling the remnants. Why not? I do understand the idea of not plopping it in front of non-hunters, but there are a lot of places away from hiking trails and such where nobody will have to trip over it. When you think about it, I really don't go out of my way to hide the gut-pile. Within a day or two, it will disappear, and a few animals will head into winter with just a little more reserve in their tank.

This year, I will be wiring it to a tree down in the thicket in front and use it for coyote and fox bait.

LOL .... Sure does get awful deep in here at times. I love that pronouncement that "I will shoot no deer before it's time. I am a super hunter and you are crap! I can see through leaves and around trees and have never made a mistake in my life. Deer just naturally stop and pose with their antlers in just the right position so I can count each individual tine on each antler. What is your problem? Why can't you be perfect like me?"

I know some people that seem to be just natural shooters,and can pick up their bows for the first time at a point just days before the season and be right back in the groove almost instantly. As for myself, I have to work at it, so my practice has to be almost constant year around. Bowhunting can be a demanding activity. I have developed so many target panic maladies that it sometimes gets almost comical. But I don't worry too much about what other people are doing. I have a big enough job keeping my own shooting under control. I can remember a couple of seasons that had to be started late because a sudden case of violent flinches reared its ugly head. I won't go out until I feel my shooting is under control. Others do what they think they have to, and it's not my concern. Equipment changes .... I agree, if equipment has been stored properly I can see no reason for anything to move that didn't move the previous season. However, equipment failures can happen at any time regardless of practice frequency. I had a string blow up a couple of weeks back. It turned out to be an aluminum "D"-loop that let go and turned into a dry-fire that had the upper limb whipping past my head. Now there is something that happened even after frequent practice sessions over many months. Practice didn't help me much there. So the message is that I try to apply the practice that I need to assist my consistancy. Others may or may not need that level of practice. I refuse to police the rest of the world, or work myself into some kind of rage over their level of practice. That's not my job ..... lol.

As a matter of fact, I mis-read the article. The bad news that they were trying to convey from the standpoint of the DEC proposal apparently is that they do not have it in their power to just arbitrarily change the regulation but they must go to the legislature for this particular change. The article eventually said that no legislation has been introduced in the Senate or Assembly. There was no explanation as to why that was. So apparently, if they can find a sponsor, the proposal still lives.

If you want to take the time and invest a bit of effort to go back through previous threads that involve this subject, you will find several items that I have specifically suggested that would have far more impact than special youth hunts. You will also find that I have repeated them a few times to try to catch the attention of those determined to ignore them. I have already gone through all that and I have come to see the futility in trying to change closed minds by offering alternative ideas. Most rabid advocates of the youth hunt don't really like anybody suggesting alternative, more effective methods, so they quickly have changed the subject and moved around those things. They find it distracting from their locked in ideas and not particularly useful in their campaign. I also will say that I have written many letters to the DEC forwarding those suggestions on to the agency that supposedly has the power to implement them or some variation of them. Also, I have taken every opportunity to talk to DEC personel at public meetings and discuss alternative ideas. So as far as walking the walk, I guess I do. These suggestions involved DEC programs and activities in the schools and increased project activity from rod and gun clubs, etc. I will not be repeating any of that stuff on here again, as apparently it bothers some. Besides, that is getting tiresome and is absolutely useless because those that have their minds made up will skip over it all again. So anyway, it is all here somewhere in the archives, and available to those who are truly interested enough to look it up. But as far as going over all of that even one more time, I am done with it. The thoughts that I came up with are nothing amazing or involve any deep thinking. I would suggest that anyone willing to open their minds a crack could easily come up with them on their own. The problem is that people tend to grab on to the idea that's provided to them (right or wrong) and that's right where their thinking and innovation ends. You can't fight human nature.

Thank God I don't really hang out with those kind of people. So, I haven't run into any of that. Anybody I know or hunt with understand that I would turn them in for that kind of thing. But, I'm sure that it does happen someplace.

It would appear that revising the set-back rules for shooting a bow from 500' to 150' has hit the crapper, according to an article in New York Outdoor News. Although Using them as a credible source has not really panned out all that great lately .... lol. This was another 5-year deer management plan item that I didn't agree with. I understand what they were trying to accomplish, but my gosh, 50 yards from an occupied building? .... really? That's a bit close. I think that sometimes it is a good thing to take some matters out of the DEC's hands. This certainly is a case where smarter heads prevailed (even if they were political....lol).

You don't get anything. And for somebody complaining about my repeating things you definitely must have some kind of comprehension problem because seem to be asking questions and making statements that show you haven't got a clue about anything that I have repeated over and over for you. I can't repeat it any more for you. I can't make it any clearer.

I don't think you have a clue as to other more meaningful things that will make a significant difference because (speaking of blinders) you are 100% invested in this feel-good scheme and haven't spent a single additional moment thinking about any other solutions. It takes somebody such as myself to look beyond the flaws of current thinking to invest the effort of innovation. Unfortunately your situation is the same as the DEC with committment to only one plan and absolutely no plan B's. You have grabbed on to this one insignificant plan and just like the DEC are falsely feeling fine about having solved the recruitment problem. I personally don't go for concessions. I would hold the DEC's feet to the fire until they come up with real significant plans. You apparently are easier satisfied.

My God man, do you ever read my posts at all? No, I am not going to repeat it all again just because some decide to read only a line or two. In fact no less that adozen times I have described in painful detail what my objections are to this feel-good window-dressing activity are. For crying out loud ..... look it up! Frankly, I don't really care what people have forced themselves to do whether they hunt the Northern Zone or the Southern Zone or some other state. I'm telling you that I simply don't care to hunt with sweat running down my back and mosquitoes banging into my face and a short time clock on recovering downed game. If you have come to love that sort of thing, good for you. Some how I suspect I'm not alone in that.

Interesting articles. They really get into the demographics, but were not too specific on the hunter population trends other than that they still agree that the hunter population is continuing to age. They definitely massage the data don't they?

Of course the youth season will not impact anyone's bowhunt. At 8000 participants statewide, it will pretty much be a non-event. As far as whether I use the new "replaced" days or not, your right. Just like any hunting days, I will use or not use them at my discretion. And your point is? That's the way it has always been with decisions made as to whether weather conditions were not suitable or not. This is no different except the replaced days are more likely to be unsuitable as I pointed out above. It is still true that we got screwed out of days that were more likely to be suitable to any kind of deer hunting and given back days when conditions will likely be a bit more difficult. The actual context of my comments that you chose to ignore related to the statement made that I should feel "happy" that we got those additional days of hunting. I don't have to feel "happy" about having good hunting days removed and replaced with summer-like days. If you are happy about that, I'm happy for you..... lol.

And simply because you keep repeating that it is working in other states doesn't make it so. Yes, they do successfully hold youth gun hunts. If that is your measure of success then I will grant that you can force anything to happen even if it is an insignificant meaningless act and call it a success based on that. And if it makes you feel good, then that is about as much as you can expect. Maybe that makes it a success in your mind. Sorry, but I am looking for something that actually makes a difference in the hunter bottom line numbers. And last time I heard those numbers nationally were still going down even in all those states that hold special youth hunts.

Yes, which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way you choose to look at it, it was a flat out dumb move. Sorry, but there is simply no kinder way of putting it. The way I see it, they took time away from bowhunters when they went to the Saturday opener. They simply were giving it back plus a bit more. That was payback. Unfortunately they took away some prime time and gave us back some crap. I have no reason to be happy about the "give-back" yet. I was ok with the way it was, and it is yet to be seen how enjoyable this warmer, potentially bug-infested, leaf-clogged, early start really turns out to be. But apparently there are a whole lot of bowhunters that think it's some kind of wonderful thing. I'll be able to say more about that when I have sampled a bit of it. But right now it is a bit premature to say what "I should be happy about".