Doc

I can only make one suggestion and it really sounds like a cop-out. But my guess is that you are in need of a good program of regular shooting to build those bow shooting muscles. A lot is often made of the high let-offs of modern compounds and how the physical requirements for shooting have been eliminated. Don't you believe it. There still is the fact that you are holding a lot of dead weight out there at arms length. You still have to pull the entire draw weight at some point in the draw cycle. You are exerting a lot of force in a way that is not really all that natural for humans. Archery requires muscles that are not used in any other kind of activity and they have to be built and maintained. It still is all about strength training of specific "archery muscles", and the only efficient way to do that is to shoot and shoot often. You might also consider temporarily dropping the weight to 50# if your bow is capable of going down any farther. I say that because it is not a real good idea to shoot a bow from an over-bowed situation because all that does is build in poor shooting form and shooting habits that will be very hard to break later on. Shooting a lower weight and gradually cranking it up later is the better way. With regular practice you'll be surprised how quickly you will have it back up to 55# and beyond. Building those specialized muscles really doesn't take all that long, but it does require regularity of practice. If you can find a winter archery league, that would be a great thing. If you have room in your basement that can be used even if it's only 10 yards (just use smaller bulls-eyes ..... lol). I will guarantee that come next year that arm will not be shaking. I can promise you that just one winter of that kind of intense practice will make a change that you won't believe. People that want to be bowhunters must resign themselves to the fact that they have to first become an archer. You can't shoot a deer if you can't shoot your bow. Practice is the key to mastering archery.

What the heck, I was thinking of getting my wife a new set of a dozen #2 coil-spring racoon traps this year so she can finally get that fur coat she always wanted. I don't know about this jewelry and pearls and stuff. But if I was to get into the jewelry and pearls and such, I know this guy down on the Main Street sidewalk that has a lot of stuff in his pockets that go pretty cheap. He promised that none of it would turn your skin green. Should be ok for a plan B wouldn't you think?

Well this topic is getting well-adrift from where it started, but since the nature of the thread seems to be evolving, I'll add my two cents on these latest responses. My gut feel is that the general non-hunting public would never recognize or understand a term like AR even if they ghappened to hear it. The fact is that most could care less about hunting or the reasons why we are doing it or any of the other finer points of how and why we manage deer herds. I think they simply feel that hunting is an old time tradition among some parts of society and they don't happen to understand or relate to any of it, but if there are some that do it ....... Ho-Hum ...... so what. I think what they do understand is auto-deer collisions or hundreds of dollars worth of destroyed landscape and that is what keeps a majority of them tolerating hunters. AR isn't even on their radar screen in the bigger scheme of things in their busy lives. Now if you want to consider those who really do hold our destiny in their hands, you have to look to the legislators. They are the ones that shape public opinion and get their constituents all whipped up about things. And what drives them? ........ votes. They have learned that there are certain groups of people that can only mean trouble when you cross them. Hunters are one of those groups. Hunting voters are counted by the number of hunting licenses sold. That all translates to hunter influence. A sliding number of hunter licenses means a sliding influence with the movers and shakers of politics when it come to the welfare of hunting. That is why we need to be concerned with hunter numbers. Some of these numbers may only represent guys that go out for a couple of hours on opening day, but politicians can't gage a level of dedication. They only know that they represent a political block. We may scornfully call these hunters "part-time hunters" and look down our noses at them and wonder who the heck cares about them and who cares if they drop out. Well, those politicians care about them and therefore we had better start caring about them. Even we don't have any clear idea of what percentage of all those hunting licenses comprise non-dedicated casual hunters. it could be a lot larger than any of us realizes. While we are cheerfully chopping out this group and that category of hunters by pissing them off with all kinds of new restrictions, the bottom line in terms of hunter numbers is continuing to shrink and is indicating to legislators that maybe this hunting block of voters is not really something to be concerned about. That's not good and I might suggest that perhaps we not be so eager to start eating our own.

This past week I got only 3 pictures of the same little runty fawn. That includes 24 hour surveillance of three different areas each of which was giving 2 or 3 pictures every night prior to gun season. I can see all the movement changing to nocturnal, but I am not getting pictures at night either. See, they shot 'em all ..... lol. The area that I am covering is primarily a thicket area which offers the kind of cover and concealed travel corridors that one would expect them to be in while the guns are banging away. No, I'm not really all that concerned. This was the year that it seemed that all the bucks had come up missing until shortly after bow season began when they started coming out of the wood-work. It is interesting how they seem to be able to disappear for long periods of time. Tricky critters!!!

Ah the old follow through problem. believe it or not after 46 years of shooting the bow (some of that being tournament shooting), I still have that problem sneaking in periodically. And boy does that mess things up! And yes, follow-through does impact torque. It is one of several causes. hand placement and grip being a couple of others. You still may be able to open your grip a bit more. I like it so that I have absolutely no control as far as stopping the bow's forward motion (that's what the strap is for). I just let the bow go . That way I know that I am not influencing torque or other potential problems. It also makes me not "grab for the bow". That is something that can happen almost unconsciously and definitely will cause torque and all other kinds of grief. Grabbing for the bow after the shot is also a follow-through failure. If my fingers are almost closed, it seems to be a natural reaction to grab after the shot. Some times that is "after" the shot. Sometimes it is right "during" the shot. Sometimes it happens just "before" the arrow has really left the bow all the way. Those three variations will absolutely kill accuracy. The differences between the three different timings is so slight that it may vary from one shot to the next and create radically different points of impact. That's why I concentrate on letting the bow simply drop forward. With today's equipment,the bow will do all the work if you let it. Anyway per your intial post, none of this will be helped with this new Square -Up torque indicator .... lol. But It may help detect improper gripping techniques. It won't fix them but it probably will tell you if you are over-controlling the bow.

You did recognize that that reply was a tongue-in-cheek kind of joke ...... right?

I can't quite make it all out (it's a bit close), but I'm sure that's a wrist strap. They make all kinds of them (mine's leather) but I've seen those braided kind too and they work just as good. The trick with those is not to have them too tight (you don't want your hand forced tight into the grip), but just tight enough to retain the bow and keep it falling on the ground on release. With the strap set loosely concentrate on keeping your hand open throughout the shot and beyond (that all becomes part of the follow-through). When I say open, I don't mean that your fingers have to be splayed wide open. You just have to ensure that you are getting minimum hand contact. You are not gripping the bow but just bracing it with a totally relaxed hand. This way the hand is not "controlling the grip but merely supplying a bracing surface. Upon release, the bow should slowly pivot forward at the top and be eventually caught by the strap. Do not try to catch the bow. Wow ..... lol .... that's all a hard thing to describe without actually showing how it all happens. I hope I'm making it clear enough. This might make a good wintertime experiment just to see how it all works if you can find an indoor shooting range. If done properly, there should be no torqing influences from your hand at all.

I did hear a rumor that the old Red & White grocery store down in Naples had to quit processing deer because of some conflicts with their regular butchering business. I never heard the details.

I've got to say that the whole activity can get mighty darn addictive. I remember when I was really involved, I would spend many late nights that often ran into the early morning hours banging away at the internet, tracking down all kinds of leads..... Just couldn't stop. It's all just a bunch of "detective" work with pretty darn satisfying results.

My attempt with the level was all about the terrain. My archery range is chopped into a steep side hill. All points of reference are at a severe angle to actual vertical. It really messes up my sense of perpendicularity and effects the right and left sight settings. I don't think this Square-Up thing would help that out at all, but then that's not what they claim to be designed for anyway. However, for improper hand placement and other forms of torqueing problems, I could see where it might actually work.

You might try a wrist strap and a completely open grip. Let the wrist strap catch the bow for you. That should take the torquing influences out completely

The only thing I would wonder is if all this stuff might be a bit distracting. For example, I tried a level once and it drove me nuts trying to keep the sight pin in the middle of the peep sight aperature while holding it all steady on the target and then having to look away for a second to see the level-bubble. It was impossible for me to keep all that stuff together and actually get a shot off ..... lol. I ripped that sucker off in a hurry. It is true that this system is located concentricly around your sight, but I still wonder if it still isn't getting to be a bit much.

I only used 1 tag. But I suppose for just the two of us, that's probably enough. It was a tough season this year with the crappy weather followed by my little eye-ball problem. With all that nonsense going on, I feel fortunate to have filled the one tag ..... lol.

I always thought that barns were included in that law, but I don't have a clue where I would have gotten that idea. Maybe it was just from the old days where a barn might look empty, but frequently inside there might be some guy(s) doing chores, milking, feeding, cleaning out stalls, etc. Sometimes it's more occupied than the house ....lol. However, there is no way that you could call a barn a dwelling.

If somehow you could instill the idea of "picking a spot" on the deer when shooting, there would never be another mistaken identity shooting. You cannot be looking to place the slug or bullet into specific lethal areas of the deer and then mistake a person for a deer. So many people think that if you hit a deer anywhere in the body it's all over. So naturally, any brown flash through the brush gets an immediate shot (or 5). Anyone who was actually trying to place their shot only in a lethal spot could never think that any person was a deer. You just couldn't do it. Perhaps this is a point that should be driven home a little better by hunter safety instruction or perhaps we have to increase peer pressure to the point where we refuse to hunt with someone who doesn't place their shots carefully. Of course we know that the idea of picking a spot on the deer is not necessarily ever going to be universally accepted as a requirement to pulling the trigger. Not everybody has that level of respect for the animal to try to ensure a quick and humane kill. A simple movement is sometimes all it takes for some to shoot. That's how people get mistaken for deer and it's a damned shame and totally unnecessary.

Yes, I have been to some of them. It seldom turns out to be a happy experience. I think when you find a good processor, it's a good idea to stay with them. I remember one outfit that had a stainless steel table that stunk like rotten meat. I guess he never washed it. It was strong enough so that you really didn't have to get all that close to it to smell it. I re-loaded my deer and went on home to butcher the deer myself. There was another one where I had to wait almost a week to get my deer back. While I didn't find anything wrong with the meat, I did worry a bit about how things were being stored over that week. I was wondering ..... is there any kind of inspection or licensing for deer processors? Any kinds of regulations at all? Or does a guy just place an ad in the local paper, hang a sign up, and start butchering deer?

I apologize to members of this forum for engaging in this ridiculous back and forth nonsense. In an attempt at correcting lies about my reply in this thread, I was drawn into what I consider to be bad forum behavior. I apologize for that and intend to cease discussion with the other individual involved.

What on earth does a comment about the lack of hunter pressure relative to deer movement have to do with anything that you have been raving about particularly anything about deer hunting quality in the 60's? And I'm not sure what the post about observations over the past decade has to do with anything that I was talking about either. You are really out there floundering around now and frankly you are getting a bit ridiculous in your grasping for straws. Please, the time is now to go get that help that I spoke of. It appears that you can't seem to stay focused in any particular direction for more than a few seconds. Really, conversing with you is an exercise in futility and a complete waste of time. It's like talking to a raving lunatic.

So it is only "dwellings" they are talking about. Would you think that the same distinction would be made relative to barns or other outbuildings around a home-site. I think that might be the case because barns are not dwellings and so the 500' rule shouldn't apply to them. Is that the way you interpret his answer?

This is the first I have seen of this version of the product. I will say that there definitely is something to the concept. Back a couple of decades ago I was experimenting with a tubular sight and saw the variations caused by hand torque which was hi-lited as I looked down the tube. This design uses that basic same concept. It looks like they have refined it a bit and made it marketable. How well it works out in real practice with their version is yet to be seen, but I do believe in the raw concept. I never did anything with the idea, but it looks like somebody has. I may break down and begrudgingly part with some of my cash for this one. That doesn't happen much anymore. Let's see what the thing looks like in my hand.

So far, and once again, you are just flat making up things and this time I will call it what it is ....... lying. I don't know what your problem is but you seem to have a problem with reality. I would really appreciate it if you would learn to read something and understand what it is you are reading and stop listening to those crazy voices in your head. What is it about the fact that I never talked about the quality of deer hunting back in the 60's (or 50's) on this forum, that you can't seem to get into your thick skull? I'll go one step further and call BS on your whole notion that you ever heard anyone say anything like "Hunting stinks now, it used to be better back when, and oh yeah, if you are living in a house built after 1950 or shooting does its your fault" on this forum. That is just simply a lie that you made up isn't it? You never did go back and read the posts that you are lying about did you? You would rather continue to make an ass out of yourself over some imagined comments. You don't really have any idea what those posts were all about now do you? You don't even care how foolish you sound do you? You are making this whole argument up simply because you felt the need to vent over some imagined post that never even took place anywhere but in your head. You've never heard any post on this forum that in any way relates to the nonsense you have been spewing on this thread have you? So what exactly does all that make you. Stop and think about that. Perhaps you should be seeking out some help with those voices in your head. Let us know how you make out.

I would suggest that you go back to that college and get your money back ..... lol. Maybe you could try to get control of yourself long enough to apply the proper quotes to the proper people and stop making these things up as you go along. I never have said anything about how "THINGS USED TO BE GREAT UNTIL THE DEC AND DOE PERMITS CAME INTO EXISTENCE". The fact is that I doubt that anybody here ever said that so that is just something that you found convenient to make up. As a matter of fact, I didn't even say that back in the 60's deer hunting was any better or worse than it is now. The fact is that my whole post was about the lack of posted signs, and the freedom to hunt where ever you wanted. So what the heck you are talking about is completely beyond me. It all seems like a complete fabrication just to have something to flame about. Are you that desparate to post something negative that you have to fabricate quotes? Maybe you might want to go back and take a look at the posts that you are trying to misquote and i would guess that you will feel mighty foolish. I think you should wipe the spit off your screen, try to relax that vein that is throbbing on your forehead and relax a bit and try to have a decent conversation using some form of civility.

Really, I can't be responsible for the DEC's half of the violations reporting system. If they have had their resources cut to the point where they can't even respond to all violation complaints, I think that might just be a little bit beyond my control. It also might indicate the need for a little bit of civilian assistance. And while I'm sure that somewhere in the state that has actually happened, I still don't believe that that is a reason for indicting the whole system. And it certainly doesn't mean that I have to, or should, ignore violations when I see them, shake the hand of the violator, and then encourage his behavior by offering suggestions where he can do it more successfully. My God people I can't believe that we have come to the point where we welcome law-breaking based on a hard-luck story. Especially in this case where there are viable alternatives to lawlessness as suggested in several replies. I have seen people in wheelchairs with limbs missing or even blindness that go to extreme lengths to hunt legally. If this guy is actually in such bad shape that he can't make it the required legal distance off the road what exactly was his plan if he got something ..... just let it rot where it fell? Is that something that you feel should be encouraged? Sorry, but I don't.

What the hell is your problem. If you don't want to hear a little history on how we got to the point where the original post had to be asked ....... don't read it. And speaking of hijacking topics, what made you think that your bragging about how many deer you and your kid got, or adapting to ecological changes, or the virtues of hunting state land has anything to do with the original question that was asking about "Not posted-fair game"? There's no connection at all! So, just relax and enjoy some quiet conversation. It won't hurt you ..... really.

I guess my take on all this is that I don't really care what the next guy takes. As long as it's legal, it really is none of my business. If he takes a buck that is smaller than something I might take, he will still get my congratulations and not a lecture. I am beginning to believe that some of the faltering of hunter numbers has a lot to do with this constant guilt trip that some try to put on them. There is a growing attitude that if you can't harvest a mature buck, you don't have any business hunting. There is adequate harping on the subject that may very well be discouraging some hunters from continuing in the sport. I think that is wrong. I think hunters should set their challenges and goals wherever they want within the framework of the law and it is up to no one else to interfere in that decision. Those that want to dictate to others what their measure of success should be are welcome to buy their own land and dictate away to those that hunt that land.