Doc

I have seen videos of genetically engineered deer that have grotesque antlers of unbelievable size. And yet in all the years of records keeping throughout history, no one has ever shot any wild deer that even came close to these manufactured freaks. I've got to believe that there is a lot more than mere age that has gotten these genetic creations to the ridiculous stage of antler development that they have concocted on these deer farms. In fact, in extreme advanced age of deer, the antlers even begin to regress.

Some day I would really like to learn more about is the nature of scent dispersal whether that scent is smoke, or just simply any scent that might begenerated from a stand. Obviously, if the wind is blowing directly toward the deer, most likely the hunt will end badly. But my points of curiosity are relative to what happens when you get that occasional swirl or back-flow of the breezes. We know what will happen if the deer is standing there when it happens, but I have always been curious about scent molecules that may travel randomly around my stand into places where I would rather they didn't. I know that scent molecules adhere to things. Just cross the deer trail on your way in and check out the reaction of an incoming deer when he crosses your scent trail. What I don't know is how much scent is deposited when that breeze takes a momentary turn. Does it make a difference whether the wind is quite calm vs. blowing strongly? How far out is scent deposited? How long does it stay there? What are the effects of weather on those scent molecules? What is the change in width of the scent stream as it gets farther away. What do we know about the changes in density of a scent stream as it goes farther away? In other words, when that errant blast of wind covers the area that we expect the deer to come from, what damage has been done? We all devote a lot of time and research to our hunting, and yet we do not understand much about the effect of that occasional swirl of the wind. Probably we mostly assume that as long as the wind isn't pointed at the deer , all is well ...... but is it? I know it can't be reduced down to numbers, but it sure would be nice to know a little something about the properties and behavior of scent molecules. For something that is so darned important to us, there sure seems to be precious little discussion or literature about it. Maybe if we knew more about it, it would clarify this discussion on cigarette smoke.

This is exactly what a buddy of mine from highschool an I did on my very first deer hunt. It was great fun. We didn't even have a tent, and built a very tight small structure from saplings, and pine boughs. It was pretty primitive. We even dined on a squirrel cooked on a spit over the fire. It had the consistancy of shoe leather..... lol. We weren't all that far in (up the hill behind the house), so we weren't too strapped as to what we could take. Your proposed adventure sounds like it will take a lot more planning....lol. If it were me, one item I would take along would be some kind of communication device (cell-phone?) so that if an emergency were to come up you might have a chance of getting some help. I think it might be a good idea to check on-line for back-packing tips and techniques. You know...... some clues about weight and bulk concerns so you don't start dragging everything from home along with you. Might not be a bad idea to keep in mind that anything that you get will have to be packed back out along with whatever you take in. What you didn't say was how far you intend to go and what the terrain might be like. That makes a huge difference as to what you lug along.

I have to ask, was the wind in your favor or theirs. Sometimes you could be sitting there with with a pile of pastrami sandwiches and if the wind is right (and stays there), no deer will ever smell them, old or young. I believe that smoking could only be a detriment if the smoke is going to the deer, or if it has periodically been dispersing into a direction that the deer walks through. That second scenario is a little more tricky as I have not run into too many people who are competent to discuss the nature of "broadcasted" scent, regarding the distance, duration,intensity and effects of weather conditions on scent particles that have been temporarily sent over grass, branches, weeds, dirt, etc. However, I do think there is some scent deposited when a wind does one of those famous back-drafts. How strong it is or how far out it goes is anybody's guess, but it would seem that the stronger the scent (such as cigarette smoke), the more damage that might be done by those occasional directional switches in terms of giving those deer an early warning. I often wonder just how many deer I never got a chance to see back in my smoking years because of an invisible early warning system that may have drifted out through the woods.

Somebody want to catch me up and tell me where this 5% figure came from? I missed it. Is that some kind of DEC stat?

Don't we have an antlerless permit system that is based exactly on the same thing? ..... and for the same reasons.

It does kind of cheapen the rarity and challenge of legitimately getting a "decent" buck when there are people out there that are raising (manufacturing) these kinds of grotesque monsters. Yes, I realize that the records keeping organizations have restrictions of fair chase requirements to try and maintain the validity of true honest hunted animals. Still it seems that these versions of "Frankendeer" have a negative reflection on the natural quality of true wild animals. Obviously there is a market for the semen of these animals, and eventually it would seem that the end result would be for some guy with deep pockets to harvest a genetically manufactured deer, and place the mounted head in his trophy room with any story attached to it that he wanted. I probably have less quarrel with the guy who raises and develops these genetic monsters than some of the end users of his product. It just seems a shame that there really is a market for this kind of thing and that anyone who calls themselves a hunter would engage in this strange practice of creating your trophy. I don't know, I probably am in the minority with that attitude, but I am still a believer in hunting the species the way they have developed in nature. I have no interest in buying a manufactured trophy for my wall or for any other purpose. To me that cheapens the whole activity of hunting.

Does NYS have laws against wasting wild game meat the way Canada does? I've never seen it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Regarding the reply that asked about DEC regulations against improper meat treatment, maybe if there is a law against wasting meat, there might be some sort of connection there ........ but I doubt it. I have seen some deer hanging so long (weeks) that I just know that they eventually had to throw it out ....... or at least I hope they did.....lol.

I think you have to be careful about coming up with hard and fast conclusions based on a few incidents experienced throughout a lifetime of hunting. Weird things do happen in the world of the whitetail. Such odd experiences happen just frequently enough to confuse people as to what the norm is. Also, it may not indicate what an experienced buck or doe with some age on it might do, when you see this year's fawn wandering up your smoke stream. We do tend to over generalize what we occasionally see while hunting. There are an awful lot of things that young deer will tolerate that older deer may not.

There are some municipalities that make disposal of electronic equipment (TV and stereo equipment) and chemical waste (paint), a more difficult thing to dispose of. Much of that has special places and times of the year that such things can be disposed of. It becomes a bit of an inconvenience. So if those are the kinds of things that you are finding litering the landscape, that might be the reason why more and more of that kind of crap is showing up.

I think these scuzz-balls are starting to realize just what an impotent position DEC law enforcement has gotten into with all the lay-offs and budget cuts. And I believe that lawlessness in the area of game law violations will increase. That's why it is important for hunters to become more vigilant in reporting law-breaking. We need to get less concerned about making excuses for these violations and more concerned with doing our part in keeping these people from breaking the laws without any fear of being caught. Whenever I see the results of some of these "crack-downs", and how many people they catch, it makes me wonder just how huge the problem really is and how many people are getting away with such acts that we never hear about. Yes, there may be cases of some reports not being responded to, but I have to believe that those are rare. At any rate, if the DEC is having difficulties responding to reports, just imagine how ineffective they are at discovering these violations on their own without the public's help.

Yeah, I would like to excuse the litter that I find as being some kind of accidental dropping of trash, but I really don't think that is what 99.99% of it really is ...... lol. By the way, you might want to do a little research on some of those old bottles. There are people that collect some of them and will pay big bucks. If you find some old deserted dump out in the woods from a century or so ago, it sometimes pays off to spend a few minutes doing a bit of a quick archealogical explorationd checking out what kinds of things people usd to throw away. hey.....You never know .....lol.

Regarding the "one buck rule", I have to believe that this is just another "feel good" regulation that would really have no impact on buck populations. I think it is just another one of these things that sounds good for a few seconds, but really serves only as window dressing. Seriously, how many people do you actually know that harvest more than one buck? I won't say it doesn't happen, but when you actually thinkabout it, you will have a heck of a hard time thinking of anyone who does that on any kind of regular basis. I suspect that in areas where someone does take two, the buck population is probably such that it can stand a hunter or two that doubles up on their buck harvest. Like I say, I believe it is just another feel-good proposal that makes us feel like we have done something when in reality it would not be worth the cost of passing the legislation. The only good thing that such a law might help would be the fact that some guys would be a bit more picky about the quality of the buck that they take because they would understand that there is no second chance for a bigger one.

Here's the way I look at it. We can manage by "one size fits all"from the adirondacks to the capital area to the farmlands of western NY and know that we are screwing up in some of those places. Or we can make attempts to tailor management to the situations, herds, and habitats as they exist, as locally as possible, and have a far better chance of getting it right. Obviously, there is an element of practicality that has to apply, but we already have regions and WMUs layed out with unique doe harvesting boundaries, and nobody seems to have a lot of problems with that. I don't see why buck management schemes would be any different. I can only say one thing ..... I would hate to be a hunter saddled with ARs in a WMU that had their permits cut off or cut back severely. As the example I gave in my last reply, that would amount to telling hunters "Thanks for spending your cash on a license now go out there and have a nice walk. Probably no need to carry your gun. That to me is a local condition that would make AR basically mean, "no hunting". There are some situations where some of these kinds of heavy restrictions are just unreasonable.

There seems to be no limit as to what some people will do to get those prized antlers. How is it that this guy got so far off the deep end? I really can't imagine being that desparate. It's a real shame.

Ha-ha .... I live and hunt in 8N. There is no shortage of deer here.

Do not be discouraged by the fact that he's not posing for your camera since rifle season began. I haven't gotten a picture of any buck since gun season began (day or night). That doesn't mean they are all dead. As was just said, write down everything about this buck that you can remember. If he has made it through, he will be repeating a lot of the patterns that he established this year. You might be able to get an early start on him next year.

Can I say "neither"? I do not believe that either of these plans should be incorporated in an "across the state" fashion. There really are none of the latest new pop-management schemes that I feel are suitable for all parts of the state. It is not always necessary to strap every hunter in the state with all kinds of restrictions in a mindless "blanket" fashion. I'm not sure how many times it has to be said, but this state is not a homogeneous set of habitats, deer populations, and deer pressures and herd conditions. Land uses vary all over the place, and there are places where each restriction has no place and makes no sense. I know there are also places that issue zero antlerless tags. AR in such places would in effect tell hunters that you can't hunt does, and you also can't shoot 95% of the bucks that you will see (if you see any). That pretty much is telling the hunter hand me over your license money and enjoy a good walk in the woods ........ no gun required. About the most painless restriction would be the one buck rule because I am sure that the vast majority of hunters are lucky to take only one buck and taking more than one is most likely a super-rare event. Of course that fact makes you wonder exactly what actual impacts such a rule would really have. Is this just another "feel good" restriction that winds up having a near zero effect on the herd? I think most propnents of these kinds of things are hunters who refuse to recognize that conditions across the state are not exactly like they are on the tiny little areas that they hunt. My take is make the DEC earn their money and put these kinds of plans in only where they make some sense based on need, real research, habitat and herd evaluation and some form of planning.

If there is a firearms deer season in progress, I don't take a single step inside the woods (or any other place that may hold a deer) without some pretty substantial blaze orange. So if somebody is going to shoot me it will only be because they want to ...... lol.

Actually there was nothing said about "its real hard if not impossible to shoot any any kind of deer in my woods" The entire actual quote was "I have to say that that quote is a bit strange. Out here in the real world, there is no such thing as an easy harvest of any deer. That would include big buck, small buck, baby buck or any kind of a doe or fawn. I have to believe that that comment was made in jest". That quote was in response to another quote captioned in the previous reply that claimed that you can "Walk in any woods that have deer tracks and food...Boom..work done..." (which I don't happen to agree with. I guess I have more respect for all deer than to think that way). I was just stating that no deer can be taken for granted, and no deer is guaranteed to be that easy to get. That doesn't mean that life is not "good in the woods". I guess I am not one of those that needs, or even wants, deer hunting to be an easy activity. So, for me, it is possible to not have monster deer behind every tree and still enjoy the hunting that is being afforded. I hope that clears up any confusion that my posts might have caused.

I hunt a chunk of state land and every time I go out there I come back with some kind of discarded crap that somebody just threw on the ground. Pop bottles/cans, plastic sandwich bags, candy wrappers, etc. I also have found all kinds of non-biodegradable surveyor's tape, and several of those plastic helium party balloons that people are so fond of letting go. In all fairness, it is not always hunters doing the littering. That same piece of land also has mountain bikers and hikers that flood every inch of it throughout the spring, summer and fall, and I know that a lot of it comes from them.

I have to say that I am satisfied with the fact that trophy deer do exist here and some are taken every year. Also they are not cheapened by being behind every tree. In other words when someone takes a big buck around here, it is indeed a noteworthy event. Do we match the hunter-heros on Saturday morning TV with their farm raised and genetically engineeed monsters? ....... not hardly. Can I live with that? ....... absolutely. I have to hunt hard for what I get, and that doesn't bother me a bit. Would I change any of that by risking the loss of choice for myself and others? ...... no. Do I enjoy hunting in its present form? ...... more than anything else that I do. So, if I am to be honest, I can't really say that I am ready to sign on to any of the latest pop management schemes. So my answer is "Yes, life is good in our deer woods". I have no idea what others need from their hunting, but my hunting needs are being met just fine. As a qualifier, I will admit to hunting in one of the WMUs that has a high harvest and supposedly a deer density that is quite a bit above the state norm. Perhaps that effects my attitude somewhat. Could hunting be better here? ..... sure anything can be made better, but not at the expense of hunter numbers, or hunter choices.

Dried food packets...... There is no way that you are going to pack cans of food or frozen products, or fresh vegetables and such way back in. There are some tremendous products and a wide variety when it comes to dried food products. Gander Mountain has a decent selection, and I would imagine Bass-pro and Cabelas has them too. Also check out the grocery store for dried foods. If the area has the fish supply, a fold-up back-packing fishing pole and a small assortment of lures can provide some fresh fish dinners to break up the monotony of constant instant dried meals.

I haven't had all that much luck with deer coming in from downwind either before or after I quit smoking. The only thing I don't know is how many deer stopped dead in their tracks before they actually came into view because of some cigarette smoke. Here's my theory:..... yes a deer downwind has a very good chance of detecting your presence because you cannot mask or destroy all of your scent. And that is true wheher you smoke or not. BUT ....... creating more (stronger) scent than is necessary (as in smoking) simply extends the alarm downwind faster and farther and in a more concentrated and alarming form. That just makes sense to me. Back when I used to smoke, I never argued the point that I was handicapping myself. It was just a handicap that I accepted. Now, anyone can argue as to what a deer thinks when they smell cigarette smoke. I never had one tell me so I really don't know. However, older deer may have had more experience with associating cigarette smoke with humans. Again, I have a real problem figuring out what deer are thinking, but I'll bet my not smoking hasn't turned out to be a bad thing where deer hunting is concerned. At any rate, there are a lot of much better reasons for quitting smoking than simply its effect on hunting success or failure ...... lol.

Just curious as to how many guys are using blaze orange during the bow/muzzleloader season.