Doc

That's what I'm using for a computer desk. I have 12 feet of continuous deck space. The back-splash feature is a great thing for keeping things from rolling off the back to be lost forever. However, I am not all that sure as to how it would hold up to heavy, hard (metallic), things being banged around on top of it. Doesn't that stuff chip, dent, and flake rather easily. I'm not too sure how good of a utility surface it would actually make. I guess it all depends on what kinds of things that would be worked on. I think I recall that the bench would be used for working on car parts???? I don't think that surface would hold up to that kind of abuse. It sure would make a heck of a re-loading bench though .... lol. Doc

Sorry, I'm just trying to stay on track in this shifting debate. I lost my scorecard somewhere .... lol.

Smashing deer???? What kind of weapon are you hunting with ..... a post mall? ;D I know, you thought that term carried a little more emotional weight, and was guaranteed to win the point ..... lol. However, it did provide a humorous visual. Kind of like indicating that those that don't particularly like the taste of antlers are "ignorant". There is one thing I will say for these AR arguments, they sure are entertaining.

Lol.... and I guess he should know about that particular aspect of ethics. Seriously however, since you have brought up the topic, to me there is a certain amount of mental laziness in people who let a bunch of politicians decide what is right and what is wrong about how we conduct our hunting or our lives for that matter. Yes, the law is the arbitor as to whether we have done something punishible and it is a mandated code that we are forced to abide by which kind of keeps some sort of order in our world. However, if that is the only requirement that one has to determine how they judge or evaluate things in their lives, then there is something seriously lacking in the thinking and evaluation process. I find it difficult to believe that you agree with every law. I find it difficult to believe that you don't think there are omissions in the laws. If so, be careful ..... your ethics are showing.....lol. I could be wrong, but I suspect that you actually do have some judgemental and evaluation process that extends beyond the law that you might even call ethics. And guess what ...... there really is nothing wrong with that. And, as a matter of fact it is those kinds of personal evaluations that often created those laws. It's not the other way around. By the way, as you are aware, I have been very careful in each reply to qualify my comments as to the possibility that those comments may have been lifted out of context (From what you are saying, it doesn't sound like that is the case). So I am responding to the ranting in the clip that I saw, and now the explanation that you have supplied which sounds like perhaps it was not taken out of context. So it's amazing just how much you can tell from a 1 minute clip. Hopefully, I will be able to catch the program and get a first hand view of what Mr. Nugent's views really are on hunting ethics. I'm sure that 19 minutes will give me a completely educated opinion ...... : Doc

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction. Doc I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw. Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you? Doc We are looking at what effects ARs have, or why someone would support them, right? Why would you care what 1.5 numbers are in non-AR units? You can only compare pre and post AR numbers for a given area to see why people would support them. I don't know, I was responding to your following reply which is clearly regarding non AR areas: "Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area." I guess the discussion has changed somewhere along the line....lol.

And you are comparing all those silly things to a blaze orange law? Wearing blaze orange is "jumping through hoops"? Lol.... I'm really trying to have a serious discussion here. : If we really want to get the government out of our lives, lets eliminate all those pesky game laws (and stop all that talk about those repressive AR laws). In fact why have any laws at all. Let's all do our own thing. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense either does it? Doc Doc

I ignore it because I can't find it. If you have such data, I would appreciate a link to it because as far as I know, may not even be a true statement.

No, I haven't seen the numbers, but I have no doubt that treestand accidents are quite numerous and significant. I'm not so sure that the preventative measures are quite as clear-cut or basically convenient as the blaze orange measure as regards safety. This B/O law requirement has been kicking around for quite a few years now and a lot of states have gone to some version of it. Some day there may be the same kinds of efforts to do something about treestand safety, and perhaps there may be the same level of study and data gathered relative to some specific piece of equipment that may all point to some reasonable preventative law. But right now, we have all that criteria met with a blaze orange proposal. There is data that is hard to ignore as regards the causes of hunting deaths and injuries that point to the fact that blaze orange would have prevented a significant number of them. Links to those studies were provide a bunch of pages back on this thread. So, this is the issue that is annually before us. That is why I am focused on this one. It is the one preventative safety measure that I believe in so completely that I believe it should be a requirement. We have people who find no problem with demanding laws that limit choices in harvesting deer that don't seem to have the same regard for for the humans who hunt them. I'm still trying to figure out the opposition, because most people agree that b/o is a life saver, usually to the extent that they wouldn't go into the woods without it. And yet they don't have a concern that extends beyond themselves. That's mighty cold ..... lol. Seriously though, how can a person convince themselves that b/o is an absolute life-saving requirement for themselves, but the heck with everyone else? You either believe in it or you don't. It's not some kind of fashion statement ..... it does save lives. Doc

Basically, I am trying to figure out how anything further he could say would ever extricate that huge foot that he stuck in his mouth. To me the clarity of the message behind that "sound-byte", as you called it, is something that I think was intended to form a definite opinion of the guy. I didn't see any ambiguity, and unless there some real magic in the rest of the program, I think he was painting a very clear picture of exactly what he meant. To me the words define the attitude. That's why I am interested in seeing the whole program just to find out what he could possibly say that would justify the obvious problem that he seems to be having with ethics in hunting. Needless to say, I will never get a chance to meet and get to know this guy, and can only judge his character by what he says. Such is the way with public figures. That's why it is wise for them to choose their words carefully because most assuredly they will be judged by the words they say, and rightfully so. Doc

Entire books have been written on hunting and they still do not contain all the things that you will learn over the years. However, one of the most important books that you should familiarize yourself with is the NYS hunting syllabus that comes with your license. That is number one. As many have painfully found out, "ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse for game law violations". The next suggestion is to practice with whatever weapon you choose to hunt with. A third suggestion is simply an agreement with what Fairgame said regarding finding a mentor/ hunting partner. You might consider joining a rod & gun club of some sort. There you will be able to find people who eat, sleep, and drink, hunting, and such an organization will also provide a place to get in some practice with your hunting weapon. Good luck in your upcoming first season, and feel free to ask specific questions here. I don't think you will have any problem finding good advice and a willingness to help on this site. Doc

So, could you supply a few good recipes? What tenderizing techniques do you use? I've never tried eating antlers, and am eager to check them out. Doc

Well, for those that never get to see the program but only get to see the clip ....... They certainly are going to be left with a pretty negative view of Nugent. Not that the guy doesn't have enough of that already .... lol.

Is that on the Outdoor Channel? I might try to catch it if I can.

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction. Doc I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw. Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you? Doc

Multi-flora rose ........ The latest scourge of vacant land in western NY. I don't know where it came from, I don't remember it back when I was a kid. But that stuff is a man-trap, The thorns turn backward so that once you're hung into it, there is no getting out without something ripping (usually skin). Anyone who has encountered it is not likely to ever forget it. The only good thing about that crap is that it makes great deer sanctuary because the deer can somehow get past it but hunters cannot. Believe me, it's not something you would ever try growing in your yard unless you've got some kids you want to get rid of ..... lol. Doc

I guess I can see getting all excited about someone passing a law that is actually some sort of an inconvenience, or something that doesn't actually make sense or something that cannot be justified with data, but let's face it, we're not talking about ending civil rights here .... lol. Save your indignation for something that really matters. I am as conservative minded person as you will find. In fact I am registered as a Conservative. However that sort of thing does not mean that I have to give up all forms of common sense. I am as mindful of citizen rights as anyone, but that does not mean that I believe in anarchy for crying out loud. Laws based on common sense are not really the evil of this world. Honest, this isn't even a slight encline on any kind of imagined "slippery slope", ..... : Meanwhile, there are a significant number of people out there wandering around the woods doing their damndest to commit "suicide by hunter" simply because they don't have the mental where-with-all to know any better. I don't think that is a decent position to put the rest of us in. Doc

Yes, that is why I mentioned that possibility. My question is, how was this clip put together and by who? Nugent already has a horrible image problem without somebody constructing an out-of-context clip like this that leaves the impression that he is against ethics in hunting. If those remarks are indeed out of context, then somebody has put together a real hatchet job on him. Doc

Yes there was a couple of things of interest. First of all, between 2008 and 2009, license sales plummeted. I hope that's not a trend. They wound up with more revenue for 2009 because of the one-shot blitz of lifetime licenses. I'll guarantee that that money is gone or spoken for already. So where's the operating cash coming from in future years? The other thing is the amazing drop in total revenues between 2007 and 2010. The fish and wildlife & marine resources division of the DEC is operating on less than 1/2 the resources that they had in 2007. That is why everytime I hear people demanding all these changes in management schemes, I keep asking where the money is coming from to study and implement them. Unless the schemes are actual cost reductions, I don't see the DEC doing a whole lot other than staying in place or actually retreating in management expenditures and activities. Imagine that, < 1/2 the operating resources of 3 years ago. I knew things were bad, but that is ridiculous! Doc

Another little thing that can fool you is the way the weight of the leaves will make branches sag down into shooting lanes when actually in the fall without leaves they will spring back up out of the way. There is also something that works just the other way. Those stinking multi-flora rose bushes can grow a couple of feet in one summer. So if you try to do your trimming in the spring or early summer, the day of the hunt, you may find it necessary to walk out into an area you really didn't want to stink-up, just to snip one of those rose branches that you thought you had taken care of earlier. Doc

My wife's life was saved by a seat belt too. She was on her way out the window if she hadn't been brought up short with the harness. Thank Heavens for that law. Not too many people wore restraints until the law was passed. A funny thing has happened over the years. Now, It really feels weird if I'm not belted in. Doc

From what was shown in that clip, there really wasn't much of a message other than (strictly in the context of that clip) Nugent doesn't believe in applying ethics to hunting. I strongly disagree with that attitude, and if that was what he really wanted to say, That may encourage me to start bashing him too.....lol. However, I didn't get to see the rest of the program so I have no way of judging whether somebody just lifted a piece of a damaging rant with the intent of leaving a negative impression. Ha-ha ..... they do that in ploitics all the time. Doc

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction. Doc

Some of my favorite spots are down in the valley thickets where if you didn't cut substantial shooting lanes, you wouldn't even see deer that are 15 to 20 yards away ..... lol. The problem is that these kinds of hack-jobs do cause noticeable disturbance. The only way that I can get away with that is to do the damage one year and then hunt it the next when it only needs light trimming. However I can't ignore these spots because what I have found is that these are the kinds of places that heavily pressured deer go to, and also the movement in these kinds of tight areas start during more daylight conditions. Doc