Doc

I'm not sure just who you guys are trying to convince and why. You are starting to sound like someone who is frantically trying to persuade people not to take away your AR. I'm not sure what your so afraid of. It sounds like the whole thing was a politically contrived arrangement, and it's not likely that the DEC has the stomach for going up against that sort of legislative pressure again. So as long as you keep your QDM lobbyists happy and strong, there is not likely going to be any movement to rescind AR in areas where it is currently. You can relax ..... ok?

That's kind of what I thought I remembered, but it has been a while and like I said the whole thing didn't make much of an impression on me at the time. So I was a bit fuzzy on my recollection. Thanks for the info guys. Sorry to interrupt the discussion. Doc

I understand what you are saying, and basically you are disputing the law that makes it illegal to feed/bait deer. There is a strong connection between the baiting law and the feeding law and both are illegal. I have a hard time arguing the validity of either law in that I don't personally have the resources or knowledge of the consequences of these acts like the DEC does. The fact is that none of us do. So I guess I am forced to side with the DEC on those issues regardless of whether the practices are used for hunting or for photography. Doc

ALL offenders are potential persistant offenders. I have zero tolerance when it comes to trespassers. They all seem to have one basic feature to their attitudes, and that is that the odds are in their favor that they will not be caught. And they are probably correct. There is also another growing reality among trespassers. That is that it is cheaper to trespass and run the risk of getting caught than it is to lease property of their own. In other words the fines (if in the unlikely event they actually get caught) are less than lease prices these days. So hunters have realized that they can have exclusive use of private land at much less cost than paying for a lease. I have no sympathy with those kinds of mentality whether they are persistant offenders or whether I just have never had the opportunity to catch them before. This idea of helping them drag their ill-gotten deer is absolutely ridiculous......sorry. Doc

I need a bit of a refresher on how the AR test areas came about in the first place. Was it a DEC decision, or was it some kind of legislative act? I'm afraid I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention back then and I just can't remember the particulars of how it all came about. Anyone remember? Doc

Isn't that amazing! I had to use scotch tape to keep mine from blowing out the window. Wait until that sucker has to be taken off. It'll be part of the window. Doc

I guess that's kind of a normal trait of hunters in general.

Yes, we go back and forth with competing articles, and conflicting stats, and all kinds of crazy interpretations of facts and figures, and my take is that probably none of us are equipped to understand any of it. In addition, it doesn't seem like anyone of any credibility really is interested in giving us something that is simple and definitive. There's probably reasons for that. However, what I can understand is that there is not unanimous opinion on AR among those that do have some level of credibility. So, the real question is why is there so much disagreement among those who really should understand all of it, those who make their living understanding such things, those who invested quite a few years of education so they could figure out what works and how and why? How come AR is not a universally accepted concept. In fact, why is it that most states do not have AR (even some of the noted Big Buck states)? What is the problem with this science that it encourages so much dissention among the experts? Is the science mature or not? It's certainly not a new concept. Personally, I think the DEC has a lot bigger, more important, things on their plate than worrying about antlers. I have always said that I believe that AR is a concept that sits way, way, way, down the list of priorities. I have seen nothing to change my mind about that. If the DEC has some extra money laying around, AR is probably one of the last things that I would like to see them spend it on. Doc

Of all the places where AR would pose the greatest amount of frustration, state land would be the ultimate. Look, state land is already pretty darned tough to hunt without throwing additional restrictions on the backs of those that hunt there. Not only that, but how would that stop all the whining. Most of those that are for AR are private landowners who want to force their neighbors to abide by their AR standards. Also, consider the enforcement implications of having these little spots in every county that has a different antler criteria. Do you suppose that the next governor is going to throw in some extra money to bolster the enforcement branch of the DEC that they have decimated?

No it's not "just a deer". It is a place that I often find campfires on. It is a place where I have had dirt-bikes and ATVs buzzing by my stand while I am trying to hunt. It is a place that I have found surveyer's tape strung through the woods so the trespassers wouldn't get lost. It is a place where I have watched trespassers wander through shagging all the deer out of the area while I tried to hunt. It is an area where a group of about 9 guys tried to set up a drive during gun season in a 1000' deep thicket that is between my house and the road (without permission of course). It is a place where my own trails have been pock-marked with deep horse tracks in the mud and covered with their horse-balls. It is a place where other people treat like their own as if they helped me out with the mortgage, or were somehow helping out with the taxes or the property maintenance. No, it's not about a deer, and I sure wouldn't be helping one of these free-loaders with dragging a deer off of land that they trespassed on. Those posted signs are there for what I consider mighty good reasons, and I have no sympathy for those that disrespect me or my wishes by ignoring those signs. And as far as I'm concerned, those people who set up stands on a property line without a real good reason are just trespassers waiting for an opportunity. Doc

I think a lot of those trees on property lines survive because there is generally a pretty good chance of old line-fences grown into them. Nobody wants to hit that with their chainsaw and nobody at the mill wants to encounter fencing or nails in the logs either. Ugly things can happen to chains and saw blades when that happens.

I don't know how they do it, (especially bucks with those antlers sticking out), but they do walk right through stuff that would tear a hunter to pieces. Down our way, we are currently being over-taken by huge thickets of multi-flora rose (the meanest, nastiest stuff on the planet). You absolutely cannot even begin to walk through that crap. But the deer can and do. I've seen the tracks. I firmly believe that that is the way some of these deer get so old and huge around here. Nobody is going to go in after them simply because they can't. And by the way, it doesn't take the pressure of gun season to put them in there. They just plain like it : . Doc

Don't put down a little good ol' fashion skepticism . I have seen so many cases of people being such rabid fans of something that they simply assign the wrong reasons for observed results. Also, I have seen perceived results skewed for completely unintended reasons simply because we tend to see what we want to see. Probably the absolute worst kind of "proof" that has the least amount of credibility are the comments of hunters and fishermen .... lol. I think those asking for some actual data are not being totally unreasonable. If it were a subject that had some real importance and some actual standing in terms of priority, I could picture you asking for hard data too in order to be convinced. Can you imagine anyone designing and implementing a game management system or supporting such a thing based on the observations of a handful of people on a forum? You wouldn't accept that would you? Look, I've got no idea what you people have going over there. For all I know, you might even be understating what you are seeing. But I've got to say that when somebody tells me that AR works, they better be coming at me with some confirmed, officially obtained, hard numbers. Maybe I'm being a bit over-skeptical, especially on a subject that has pretty low priority with me, but I completely sympathize with those that refuse to take a few anecdotal observations as gospel. Doc

That is weird! I've never seen them shed in that kind of pattern. Great pic!

I did take advantage of that cold-snap to get out, dressed in some of my heavier cold-weather gear to do some shooting. I have some issues to work out on that. I have not been able to detect any actual interferences, but there is something about having a lot of heavy clothing that causes restrictions in stance and draw and other pieces of my shooting form that have a severe effect on where the arrows fly. It's just not the same as shooting in a tee-shirt. I think I need some more cold mornings to work that all out. Doc

I wouldn't mind it if they actually tried to pass on some tips here and there, but they don't even try to do that anymore. It's all one big infomercial that features fictional hunting. But this latest dopey attempt at commercializing hunting is worse than useless. I think it is even bad for hunting and the attitudes of hunters. But then, that's just my perspective. Doc

This is the first indicator of the coming ice age. It's being caused by all the cut-backs in the aerosol propellants that used to keep us all nice and toasty.

I wonder if the ink is water-soluble. Perhaps moisture from sweat, atmosphere or other sources is disolving the ink. My guess is that the printers used for licenses are ink printers just like mine here at home. And the ink is water-soluble.

I have seen this point made several times over the lives of these AR threads, and I have never seen anyone rebut it. It seems there is something really wrong with the notion that AR is such a popular concept when apparently so few actually practice it. Why is there never any response to this point?

See, I knew that was the attitude ...... "That's not my situation, so that's not my problem. I'll get mine and the hell with everybody else". I do appreciate you admitting it. Doc

Yeah, and how about the 17 year old first timer. Or the 22 year old first timer. Or the 30 year old first timer. Or the 75 year old guy just looking for that one last buck. Or how about the hard working stiff that is lucky if he can squeeze a Sunday off here and there for hunting. Do you people ever even think about those hunters? Sure you have a right to push for whatever you want. You don't have to think about whatever hardship your trophyism might cause others. Not your problem ...... right?

My wife bought me a pair a couple of years back. Aluminum tubular frames with rubber/canvas webbing. I wasn't all that impressed. They're a bit hard to maneuver, and they still sink into the snow a whole lot more than I thought they would. Of course, bear in mind that I know nothing about snow-shoeing, so I'm probably not a good one to be offering opinions. I do have another possible alternative. Have you considered cross-country skis? Again this coming from someone who is totally ignorant on the subject, but I figured as long as you are still at the planning stage, you might want to look into those as another winter possible snow-hiking aid. Doc

I can see the hunters now with great big sponsor logos on their camo, walking around looking like the side of a Nascar race car. ;D Don't these jerks understand that hunting has been commercialized enough already without this kind of nonsense? They're trying their darndest to turn it into a spectator sport. Ever try to imagine what hunting will look like 50 years from now? I can sure conjure up some rather humorous images (and some that are not all that humorous) that unfortunately may not be all that far from what the whole thing eventually evolves into. Can't happen? ........ Within my lifetime, I have seen some ridiculous wild changes to hunting that I never would have believed would ever happen. Doc

Dick Henry, the guy who wrote the artice, is a recently retired big game biologist from the DEC. He knows his stuff. There's a lot of people who "know their stuff" including a few in the DEC, that don't seem to agree with the premise of the article. But then I suppose that a person would have to fancy themselves as a bit of an expert themselves in order to know whether somebody really "knows their stuff" ..... lol. But in the end, it all turns out to be a "my biologist is smarter than your biologist" kind of argument. Not terribly meaningful and frankly, I'm not impressed. However as much as I am not really an expert in the field, I feel pretty secure in predicting that the deer herd will most likely get along just fine for the next century and probably a few after that without AR, inspite of all the "sky is falling" claims from all the self-proclaimed "experts". How on earth is it that we still have all these deer running around, and even a surplus of them occasionally? Doc

Yes, I am looking at some of that "needed rain" pouring down right now.