Doc

Actually, I guess I will second that thought. I have followed these AR threads quite closely, and I really can't remember anyone being attacked for private QDM activities.

I would suspect that a larger impact on the fox population from coyotes would come more in the form of additional canine diseases because of the extra canine population. Also, the additional pressure put on food sources may impact fox populations. I'll say one thing, I have seen how fast and agile a fox is, and I think a coyote has it's work cut out for it when it comes to them trying to make a meal out of a fox. I won't say it can't be done, but I think a coyote has a whole lot of other easier meals to catch. I had a little episode with a fox "jumping the string" at about 7 yards. I've seen flies with slower reflexes. He jumped straight up and the arrow went under him, and he hit the ground running like a streak. I don't think there is anything that could have caught him (not even a coyote), certainly not my arrow....lol. Doc

If Oregon handles such laws the way NY does, the good news is that such laws never get voted on by the general population. Most likely the only ones that will be heard on the subject are the hunters, or even more likely hunting organizations. I wouldn't worry too much about the general voting population. These kinds of things are seldom elevated to general referendums. If there is enough opposition, and the hunters feel strongly enough about the issue, they will flood the legislators with e-mails and phone calls and should have their way with the legislators that would propose, and vote on a B/O law and the Governor who may have to sign it. If the opposition is weak in actual committment or forms only a weak minority of hunters, the law will be passed. I doubt that the gentlemen hikers of Portland will have any say or impact at all. Of course that's assuming that Oregon lawmaking is similar to ours. Doc

Really? ...... I know that all knife blades are not stainless, and I just assumed that the nice shiny surface was from some sort of plating. But then, I really don't know anything about it, so maybe not. The guys that are making knife blades out of old files must have some way of protecting the blade from corrosion when they are finished. It sure would be a nasty event to put all that work into them and then watch them start rusting. Doc

My entire property has a fence around it, and I hunt deer there. Of course a lot of the fence, you need a metal detector to find it. Doc

Well, that's a question that's been rolling around in my head regarding that end of the spectrum as far as issuing gobs of DMPs, and I really don't know the answer. Is there some upper limit where the DEC can offer all the DMPs that they want and at some point have difficulty getting rid of them all or getting hunters to fill them if they have been issued. Somewhere, I saw the percent success ratio on DMPs and it struck me as being ridiculously low. So it makes me wonder if there isn't a point where bulk numbers of permits simply top out and either are not taken or not filled. For that matter, does anyone know if all the permits are issued even at the existing rate allowed now. On that question, I would avoid factoring in the $10. I think if they were up against the wall trying to control a runaway population, that fee would quickly go by the wayside. But just how many deer does the average hunter kill and consume, and how many would they if there was no limit? I think we might be surprised at how low that number may be. Doc

Yup! That's why we don't get a vote about things that go on in Oregon. That is something they have to work out for themselves. Doc

How do you handle the re-plating?

I'm thinking the state will regret the day that they pumped up those license fees. First of all, it caused a huge spike in lifetime licenses. I still am not clear on just exactly how that glut of money is being managed, but I certainly hope they have it in the market somewhere and it is appreciating enough to make up for all the license money that will no longer be coming in ...... ever. My biggest fear is that they may have blown a good bunch of it just trying to keep up with current expenses and making up for current budget shortfalls. I hope not. Secondly, while it remains to be seen yet, I believe that the fee increases will result in an even steeper decline in sportsmen. I know that taxation is a great way to cut participation and it doesn't take that much of an increase to push some people over the edge and out of the activity. It's kind of a proven principle that has been used by the government for years as a form of behavior modification. There's nothing unique about hunting, fishing, and trapping that makes these activities exempt from that principle. It may all wind up to be a downward spiral. As sportsmen numbers decline, the fees have to go up. As the fees go up, the sportsmen numbers decline more. And another lurking force is the stagnant economy that seems to be lasting a whole lot longer than anyone anticipated. The longer that takes to turn around, the less income the state experiences from whatever fund they put the Lifetime license money in, which will eventually force future increases. Also due to the crap economy, the impact of these increases on those sportsmen that are on the edge will force more people to reconsider outdoor activities as their choice of recreation. I can't say that the state had any choice with their increases, but I don't think it did the system any long-term good. Doc

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to imagine hunter numbers declining to the point where the DEC is forced to cut bowhunting seasons and extend gun seasons, or modify bow seasons to include some more effective weapons such as crossbows and muzzleloaders. I don't see any of that happening in my lifetime, but somewhere off in the future I believe things will be moving in that direction. I think the DEC is somewhat less than impressed by the effectiveness of the bow as a herd management implement, and that seems to be their primary concern these days. Perhaps they are extending a view out in the future and are looking for alternatives to better thin herds when the time comes that hunters are not able to keep up. At any rate, I think that proposals that tend to hamper their ability to quickly shrink herds are probably not looked on favorably. Maybe that is one reason that they are not interested in any management changes that tend to set aside the harvests of any deer, even bucks. Doc

That particular one sentence should eventually account for more and bigger bucks even if there was no AR rules in place. Simply the fact that less pressure should mean smaller harvests. Smaller harvests should result in more deer getting older and bigger. Of course if AR are in place, it will get total credit for the bigger and older bucks. It's kind of like growing bigger bucks by simply not hunting them as much ...... lol.

Oh, you've got to have the DMP system for sure or this state would be in one hell of a mess. But the limit of one buck per season is something I still haven't found a down-side to. Doc

First of all, I doubt that is that case in all 40 states, but no, I didn't know that. But if we ever get a B/O law in NYS I hope that in some form that is a part of it. Whether you include non-hunters or not would still have to be debated, but I wouldn't automatically rule it out without a whole lot of careful discussion. My guess would be that that stipulation is required to apportion liability as contributory negligence (probably for reasons of lawsuits). Of course you would have to examine the details of that stipulation of the law to see exactly what that means. I doubt that it means that the one being shot is going to be receiving a ticket.

yeah, actually I do shoot some pretty old ammo, but whatever I check the shotgun out with, thats the same batch that I hunt with, so I feel pretty secure. It is stored in a pretty good environment so there is no deterioration. Also, for small game I am still using shotshells that I reloaded about 20+ years ago, and have never had a problem. Did I ever mention that I am one cheap son-of-a-gun?

Now that has to be a schedule that seriously cuts into hunting and fishing time. Doc

Even a blind squirrell finds an acorn occasionally ...... lol. I think the assessment of the herd size varies depending on what chunk of 8N you hunt. Heck, I even see big differences according to what part of town I hunt. Also when you start listening to all the comments, you will hear every variation you can imagine. The funny part is that they are probably all correct depending on what piece of property they hunt. So, I try to stay away from commenting on the state of the herd throughout any WMU. Let's face it, I don't hunt a very big part of it. So quite often, it will seem likethey are messing up, and maybe they are or maybe I'm just aren't seeing the bigger picture across the entire WMU. However, that still doesn't keep me from engaging in the favorite pastime of hunters ...... poking at the DEC Doc

I have had that happen to me where I accidently found myself in the middle of a big drive. Talk about an uneasy, uncomfortable feeling. None of those guys knew I was in there. All I could do was to hunker down on the backside of a big tree and hope there were no deer anywhere in the vicinity. On the other hand, I have also been the accidental beneficiary of one drive where the deer squirted out the side and ran right up the hill to me while I watched the whole thing from the hillside. I got a nice doe that way standing at 25 yards. And no, I didn't offer to share any of the meat with those guys ..... lol Doc

Ok, I agree that the doe part of that proposal needs to go, but the idea of a one buck per season might have some merit. Hunters would tend to make it a "good one", hence the defacto AR. And yet if a person hunted in an area where the population was quite low, or some other circumstance made a harvest unlikely, the ability to take whatever is available would still exist. What would be the down-side to that? Is there a down-side? Doc

That's funny because I have had that happen to me quite a few times. I will simply fixate on that one little twig and it will bug me until I go out there and remove it, even if I wind up stinking up my whole set-up or making noise at some critical time. I guess a couple of nasty incidents regarding tiny obstacles causing missed deer must have traumatized me to the point where I just can't help myself ..... ;D Doc

Are we seriously saying that blaze orange will take us to a "police state"? Is that what all this fear of blaze orange is all about? Is this perhaps the slippery slope that someday will lead to mandated government uniforms? I honestly have a real problem with that level of paranoia. I hate to be so darn sarcastic because I do understand that these things are serious issues to some people but come on, let's reserve all the conspiracy talk for subjects that deserve it (and there are many). I understand your point about the low percentages of hunters that wear B/O in Oregon. I'm not sure whether that means that the stats are flawed or whether the wording in this report is flawed, but obviously something is not right. What I will say is that if it is true that only 15% - 25% of the hunters there wear B/O, they really do have a serious problem and have a much greater need for a blaze orange law than we do. I also noticed a pretty important question/answer statement that you failed to highlight: That's a pretty powerful statement that certainly shows no hesitation or ambiguity. Probably is not something to be passed over or ignored. Look, I am not going to defend some study that I have never seen before, in a state that I know nothing about, but I am not surprised that the issue is coming up there as it appears to be the prudent thing to do as 40 (my number of 37 apparently has quickly become out of date) other states will attest to. I'm inclined to believe that all those states probably aren't wrong and it is likely just a matter of time before the rest wise up and take the obvious correct steps of mandating some level of blaze orange requirement. Further, I have no fears that such laws in those 40 states and whatever additional states in the future, will lead to a police state, or have the storm troopers banging on our door. I see some real concerns that regard real government misuse, and a blaze orange law doesn't even show up as a blip on any list of those sorts of things. There may be some real arguments against B/O that I have not heard yet, but the one argument that has the least merit is government abuse and denial of personal freedoms. Doc

Bubba.......How far back do you want to go? maybe to the colonial days....lol. And what was the point of your suggestion again? I honestly have no clue what it is that you are babbling about most of the time and I suppose I probably shouldn't be wasting a whole lot of time trying to figure it out. But I always hold out the hope that somewhere buried deep in all that ranting nonsense is some kind of real point that has something to do with the discussion. I think I am wrong on that. By the way, never mind your failing memory, it appears you have a bigger problem simply reading. You might want to go back and actually read that statement about the 1992 safety campaign. Maybe on a second or third or fourth stab at it, the words blaze orange might actually register in your brain. Give it a try Bubba ...... I know it is a tough sentence for you, but I know you can do it.....lol. Look, I'm not sure just how long I can continue to try to have a discussion with you. I seriously doubt that you have any intention of actually discussing anything. And certainly there has to only be a few people on this earth that can actually tell what direction all your pointless raving is heading, so I am coming to the conclusion that it is foolish to try. Doc

I'm sorry to see how crazy you seem to react in the face of actual facts and numbers. If I had known you would turn into a raving looney, I wouldn't have embarrassed you with actual data. Doc

Lol.... As long as hunters believe they can buy success at deer hunting, there will always be people who will promise that they can buy it from them. It just irritates me that I never had the gumption to get in on the action. ;D Doc

Ha-ha ..... that's funny. The law is for minors only??? I guess once you reach a certain age nobody cares whether you get shot or not.....lol. Well, they are one step closer to the other 37 states that actually show a little common sense and mandate B/O during their deer seasons. It takes a while to get past all the stubborness and all the conspiracy nuts that see B/O as the gateway to citizen slavery, but eventually, the stats begin to be something that simply can't be denied or ignored.