Doc

I think that is the way I feel about the whole subject. AR is just not a real heavy-hitter on my list of priorities. I really don't think that is even close to being one of the biggest deer management problems that we have in NYS. Maybe when we get some of the basic deer management techniques working well, I might get a little more concerned about such secondary issues. Until then, it simply is not worth the hassle that it is causing. Doc

I'm thinking that mobs of hunters in the bowhunting woods (similar to gun-hunter numbers) would cause all kinds of disruptions and interferences in your hunt. Pre-season scouting would be destroyed by pattern-shifting hunter movement. Success would be more of a result of deer fleeing other hunters rather than well executed planning, scouting, and counting on habitual patterns of an undisturbed herd. Of course for those that own, post and control hunter densities on their own land, there would be no effect. Obviously, they would just offer less permissions and control the hunter numbers in that way. But I am thinking of those of us who are relegated to public land or wide open private lands where such a situation would be a much bigger problem than it already is since there is no way of controlling hunter numbers. There was a lot of comments in the thread about how other hunters can irritate you, that point specifically to the kinds of interferences that you would see increasing to negatively change the whole quality of the hunt. Hunters tramping around your stand at inconvenient times, hunters setting up stands next to you, etc. That is why I heartily agree with the comment by Fasteddie about how one of the great features of bowhunting is that there are less folks in the woods. To me that is a big factor that makes bowhunting so much more satisfying a style of hunting. It's the one big feature that allows you to use strategy instead of just counting on the luck. Doc

I wonder what bowhunting would be like if it took off and became almost as popular as gun season with a similar hunter density. It sure would be an entirely different kind of activity wouldn't it? It probably would lose a lot of appeal for me. So, I fully agree with your comment about liking the fact that there are "Less folks in the woods during archery season". That is a major part of the quality of the bowhunt. Doc

Well, it looks like something that a well equipped hunter should have in his pack. I'll be keeping my eye out for it. Thanks for the demo. Doc

Ha-ha ..... That also means that we are getting closer to winter with bone-chilling temperatures, and slick roads, and snow storms with snow measured in "feet", and months and months of stark, gray skies and a whole world of black and white. If the warm weather months want to take their time coming to an end, that's ok with me .... lol. But unfortunately that's not the way this year is going. It seems like the entire warm weather season is just burning away about as fast as it can. Doc

That seemed like magic. How the heck did it do that? I was pretty impressed! Doc

Is there anyone who knows what ever happened to Avon Bowmen. I was a member for several years back in the 80's. But now I don't even think they exist. In fact, I haven't heard anything about the 5 Nations Archery League. Has organized NFAA competition bit the dust in Western NY? Just curious. Doc

I don't believe I have ever seen the "Butt-out tool". How does it work? Doc

In other words, you don't have a clue either. That's alright ..... I think we're all pretty darn ignorant on the subject. That's why I started this topic. Look, such an understanding of the nature of scent is not just for my benefit. I would think that all hunters would want to know as much about the subject as possible. I would imagine that you all have had the wind switch up on you for a few minutes. Hasn't it ever peaked your curiosity even a little bit as to what potential damage that little blast of scent in an inconvenient direction was actually doing to your hunt. Has no one other than myself ever wondered what makes scent stick to things on the ground and vegetation, and just how long it actually stays there. Have none of you ever wondered just how far scent will go in extremely dense thickets. The effect of scent on hunting, makes me wonder why I am the only one who ever asks these questions about a subject so basic to hunting. What I was really hoping was that someone may have run across articles written by scent manufacturers or some of these other people who are in the business of selling scent-reduction products. If you haven't, that's alright. I haven't either. Doc

A jillion years ago, I bought a nasty old kabar knife at the National Hunting and Fishing Days event over at the Avon region 8 headquarters. It was only $5, and I was quite sure that it would turn out to be a piece of junk. The price was right so I took a chance. I have owned a pile of knives over my life, most of which were expensive name brand knives. None hold an edge like this one ....... none! I use that thing for everything including chopping off limbs and field dressing deer. I had to make one modification to it. It had both sides of the blade sharpened back for about 2". After cutting my finger with that one sharpened edge that I was not used to seeing on any of my knives, I ground that sucker down to a standard 1-edge shape. Doc

I do believe that even those that don't smoke while hunting are broadcasting their own personal scent anyway. However, the strength of the cigarette/cigar/pipe smoke is so much stronger that I have to believe that it is far more dense and reaches out further and stays together as a cluster of scent molecules longer. Also, there is a possibility that it stays attached to surrounding brush, branches and grasses much longer than the normal levels of human scent. Of course a lot of all that is pure guesswork since apparently nobody really does understand the properties and physical reactions of scent. That is why I have continually tried to get the thread on scent started on the "Deer Hunting" forum. We all think we know everything necessary about scent properties, but I really don't think we (and that is an all-inclusive "we", including professionals as well as those that make their living selling scents and scent related products) have even a basic knowledge of what exactly we are talking about. Doc

Well, nobody enjoys having a "johnny-come-lately" hunter trudging under your stand, huffing and puffing in a hurry to get to his stand, stinking with sweat right at that prime time when the deer are starting to move. On state land, that does occasionally happen. Every year state-land crowding gets worse and worse, and these sorts of things happen more frequently. Then too, there are the guys who use your stand or set up next to your stand making the assumption that you have done the scouting for them. Doc

Ha-ha..... with some of the lousy shots I have seen them make and some of the shallow arrow penetrations, it's a wonder they find them at all. They probably have some tracking dogs that they have to call in to find their deer. That's most likely what takes them so long. Or maybe they have to go get the guide to secretly use his rifle to finish them off. Doc

So, none of the hunters on this site know anything about scent? You don't know what it is? You don't know how it reacts with terrain or brush. You don't know how long it lasts. You don't know how the weather affects it. But we all understand that it is one of the most important things relative to the success or failure of the hunt. How can that be? Doc

I think rabbits like other small game populations kind of go in cycles. Diseases and growing numbers of predators all impact those cycles. Here is something that I have wondered about. Hawks are totally protected as are all of the birds of prey, and it seems to me that every year there are more and more of them. Have they gotten to the level where they are impacting the cycles of small game. I know that rabbits are pretty much a delicacy for hawks, and it would stand to reason that a higher hawk population might be a reason for the rabbits to stay on a permanent low part of what would normally be the typical cycles. I have also wondered if hawks might also be impacting grouse populations as well. I'm sure they can easily catch them. Doc

Can't do it man. I ran a trapline for years and I know the kinds of stinking, rotten, baits that worked best. It left a very firm mental block in my mind. It kind of is in the same category as possum. There would be some very nasty images running through my mind if I saw either one of those on my plate ....... lol. Doc

Frankly, I wouldn't be too upset by an article that has obvious slanted reporting going on. It's not the first time that editorial comment has slipped into supposed "unbiased news reporting". Doc

Certainly the opportunities are there to discuss all kinds of hunting. scroll down on the index page. There are forum subsections there on bear hunting, turkey hunting, small game, waterfowl and I'm probably forgetting a few. We have active threads in all of them including threads on wild boars, etc. I'm confused ...... I really don't understand the comment. What more would you like to see provided? Doc

So when are all you waterfowlers going to get out there and start thinning out that goose population. Them crazy critters are everywhere. I'm thinking I should get out there and give them a try. Seems like there's a lot of good goose dinners going to waste. You could go out there in Canandaigua and get them with a net for crying out loud. I wonder if that is a legal method of hunting .... lol. Doc

When I was a kid (yes there was a time when I was a kid), we used to have quite a few grouse around. Enough so that I did get a few. it's been a lot of years since we have had a true huntable population here in Ontario County. Yes, I still hear a few drumming every year, but the population is so low, I would feel bad actually shooting one. Woodcock have always been a bit scarce here. This past spring, I had one walking up the driveway doing that silly little wobbling dance that they do. I had to actually stop the car until he wandered off the driveway and into the thicket. Goofy looking bird. I never did see where there was enough meat on them things to warrant the cost of a shotgun shell. Doc

I keep seeing stories on TV and in the papers about bears wandering around the suburbs of Rochester. New bear seasons have opened up around the state. I take those things to mean that the NYS bear population is on the up-swing. amybe even to the point of being a problem in some areas. We now officially have a season in Ontario County, but not yet a real huntable population unless you have a coincidental chance encounter. But eventually, I am sure there will be a very huntable population here. Doc

What are the legalities of bear lure in NYS? What differentiates a lure from a bait in the minds of a CO or judge or on the pages of a law book. I have never seen that subject discussed. Doc

As hunters, we all understand the importance of scent in our success or failure in deer hunting. I dare say it might be the most important aspect of our hunt. And yet, almost everything of importance about scent is still unknown and/or unreported. Why is that??? There are a series of scent related questions that I frequently post on many different forums, and without exception, they always go unanswered. And now it is time to ask them again in hopes that someone has found a study or article that has the answers. First of all, when we are sitting in our stand and that one errant breeze blows our scent right toward the trail we are watching (even if only for a few seconds), has the brush, twigs, goldenrod and other items along that trail been contaminated for some period of time by the scent molecules adhering to them? We know our foot prints can leave a scent trail that lasts for a long time. We know that when we brush against limbs and such, we leave scent behind that animals can smell some time later. So when you get that occasional back-breeze, is it contaminating the hunting site? And if so - for how long? Second, how far in a dense thicket will scent travel? I guess we know that scent molecules stick to things as it travels along. What is the effect of dense brush on the distance that scent will travel vs. the same scent broadcast over an open field? Third, what is the actual composition and chemical make-up of scent? How does it travel? Does it eventually thin out to a point where it disappears? If so, how quickly? Is it lighter or heavier than air? What makes it stick to things? How long does it stay stuck to things? Is it a solid or a gas? What the heck is it? We all spend a whole lot of time and money combatting scent and most of us don't even know what the heck it really is. Fourth, what are all the effects of atmospheric conditions and weather variations on the movement and duration of scent. High winds, damp conditions, dead calm conditions, atmospheric pressure, rain, snow, how does all that effect the movement and concentration of scent? Has anyone ever seen a detailed documentation on the subject? Fifth, has there ever been studies that try to answer some of these questions and actually reach a scientific understanding of the true nature of scent? If so, how come nobody publishes the results. Why do we have manufacturers of supposedly scent blocking clothing and yet no publicly available documentation of the physics and chemistry of scent? We have scent distributers who you would think should have some kind of intensive background in what scent is and how it all functions, and yet no real articles on the nature of their product as far as how it works. We have people that will tell us about how a buck can scent trail a doe hours after she has come and gone, and yet no one explains the mechanics of how that is possible. So many people making their living from scent products or scent suppression and yet they keep whatever information they have about scent a carefully guarded secret. I have sat in a treestand watching my breath on a cold morning all of a sudden take a bad turn toward the trail and wonder how much of that is sticking to the grasses and brush along the trail. How come I have never read anything anywhere that either says, don't worry about it, or hang it up, you might as well leave? How come I know that scent can be a hunt-killer, but I don't know the first thing about the nature of the scent itself. So, the real question is, has anyone ever seen an in depth article or scientific study regarding the actual properties and expected movements of scent? Maybe I just don't know where to look. Doc

Ok, here's another potential aspect to large coyote populations. I pose this more as question than fact, but it is something that I have always wondered about. Most of us have seen the rather poor condition that deer are in in the tail end of winter. Many of them are just barely surviving strictly on stored body fat at that part of the year. The question that runs through my mind is what is the affect of having hungry coyotes running these deer throughout the winter and forcing the burning off of valuable calories and needed fat reserves. This also brings up the question of how many deer are killed off by this excess activity even when they elude the coyotes. In other words how many of the winter killed deer are victims of this additional strain on body resources, but are officially chalked up to simply victims of weather - starvation? Something to think about when you are discussing the impacts of coyotes on deer herds. Doc

I believe it's like the old-time maple syrup operations where they used to hang buckets on trees, only in this case they hang buckets on the back end of the does...........That's my story and I'm sticking to it! Doc