Doc

My wife and I don't really need anymore than 1 deer a year, so I have neighboring people that I generally try to get a deer for. Actually, I've been doing that for quite a few years now. They need the help so excess venison goes to them. However for those that don't have any local people that need that kind of help, the venison donation program is a great thing. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow. and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced. Yeah, I know ...... That's a good one ..... lol.

Well, this is the second time that you promised to end your crazy ranting and then back-peddaling. I hope this time you finally really mean what you are saying. Doc

Haha! I was thinking the same thing. The guy in the vid got good at gutting fast because he was used to getting out quick before the law arrived!! But seriously, why the rush? I like to take my time to try and do a good job. Not to mention enjoy the warmth on my cold hands! No hurry here. The first thing I do is to stand there for a few minutes thinking, " Oh damn, now look what I have gone and done". Eventually, I talk myself into diving into the disgusting muck and mire. It's not something that I can say that I have ever really WANTED to do......ha-ha. Doc

Hey....Good to hear from you again. Glad you made it across to the new forum. You realize that you are speaking heresy, and will now probably be descended upon by the flames of the AR people both here and in the readership of New York Outdoor News? That's alright. It's always nice to catch both sides of all the different issues, and I enjoy a bit of controversy every now and then....lol. Yeah, after posting that comment, I kind of figured it out that there likely was an article size limit. That's too bad. You took on a huge topic that could extend into volumes of info. I don't suppose that the research articles are published on the net somewhere. I would be interested in reading a little more detail on those studies. You don't very often get to read anything on that side of the issue. Doc

They probably would say that they are available for NYS hunters who hunt out of state where such products are legal. Doc

Yes, I fully expect that too, and that is why I put the word "currently" in italics on my other reply. I have the same opinion that this is the foot-in-the-door law. I suspect that is why the NYB has always taken such a "no compromise" position on the issue. So many times innocent little moves wind up setting precedents that are used to go way beyond anything that anyone expected or intended. That's the same as the philosophy of the NRA. So many times I wonder, now what harm could that law do. But they have always understood that principle of "give an inch and they want a mile", and the idea of precedents and how they can be twisted to serve purposes other than what is obvious. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc

Larry- I am not a big fan of AR, but the question you had about whether or not we can tell taxpaying landowners how to hunt on their own land has been answered years ago when the 3" antler rule was established and the seasons, and all the other regulations. Should we be adding to those restrictions? ..... Well that's another issue. I don't believe we should unless there is one huge, important, well documented and scientifically proven reason that involves the health and perpetuation of the species. I'm not sure the AR crowd has met that standard yet. Your second point about how strong the convictions are of the QDM and AR proponents is a valid one ...... I think. I believe there is a huge difference between answering some kind of poll vs. the decisions we make out in the field when the deer steps out into the clear. I think also it is a lot easier to stand up for a concept as long as it is just a concept than it is when it is an actual law. Another thing is, just who is going to sit around with a bunch of other hunters and start preaching for killing 1.5 year old deer? So there may be a lot of hunters who are just saying what they believe their peers want to hear. So if the harvests don't reflect what we hear from hunters, I guess I'm not surprised. It kind of makes sense. Doc

Oak Duke (author of that article used to be a fairly regular poster on the old Empire Hunting site. I always enjoyed his comments even if I didn't agree with them all the time (surprise....surprise....lol). I don't know whether he has joined us yet or not. He used to go under the user name of Buckstopshere. Doc

OK guys ...... Thanks for the info. Doc

I'm sorry, I actually believed that you meant at least a little of the rhetoric that you were spewing. Now I guess you are saying that you really don't have any valid thoughts or convictions as to whether an early muzzleloading season should be implemented in the southern zone. See I thought that all those references to the southern zone really meant that you had some sort of principled belief that muzzleloaders should be allowed in the bow seasons of the south. Little did I know that you were arguing just to argue and taking the opportunity to just arbitrarily blast the bowhunters at the same time. Also, I took your following quote as something you really believed in: "No one said that archery season has to be taken over, just shared." How was I to know that you only think that idea applies in the north? lol..... or maybe you don't even believe in it there, who knows anymore? When you said that the archery season has to be shared, I thought you really meant it and I thought you meant it should apply statewide. Sorry ...... my mistake. I guess I have learned not to take your statements too seriously anymore because apparently there's not a whole lot of conviction behind them. Doc

No kidding ....... that's great. I tanned a fox hide when I was about 12 years old, and it turned out pretty darned good too. It was probably a lot more crude than your job, but it didn't come out too bad. I believe I used Oxalic acid for the tanning solution. i got the recipe from one of those books that are advertised in Fur-Fish-Game magazine. I'll likely try it again some day. Other than that one fox hide, we used to sell the raw stretched and dried hides to fur dealers. It seems that back then there was always dealers everywhere. Now I'm not sure just where I would go to sell hides. Over in Honeoye they have a trapper's association (Genesee Valley Trapper's Association?) that has periodic fur auctions. That's probably where a guy has to go now. Doc

Yes in areas that are shotgun only, I can see where a nice scoped in-line would be far superior to any shotgun in terms of range and accuracy. That makes a lot of sense. Every year, the bullets and powders and muzzleloaders get to be better and better. Where I am, it looks like we should be going to centerfire rifles this year If Paterson gets the bill signed in time), so I guess I will be skipping the whole muzzleloading thing entirely. But I was just curious what the attraction was for people. I would imagine for those that like the more primitive versions, there may be a certain amount of historical appeal and linkage. I can dig that too. Doc

I saw another video on the 2-bladed version of these things. Those definitely would be illegal in NY since even in the collapsed position they form a barbed head. But man, what a nasty cut. When deployed these things form a cutting width that is greater than 2". They showed a couple of few boars where they used them and the damage was very convincing. They seemed to have no problem getting entrance and exit wounds. The 2-blade version uses the same principle and the same kind of mechanism to deploy the blades as the 3 blade. I guess I am convinced that the principle works as long as you have enough bow poundage to shove all that stuff through an animal. Doc

Lol, I suppose that's one way to make sure they stop......just eat 'em! That'll put an end to that nonsense. Doc

Ok, I have a related question. Do all cell towers service all service providers? In other words if a tower was put up by Verizon, can an AT&T customer utilize that tower? Or another way of asking the same question would be, "If I can see a cell tower over on the next hill, am I guaranteed to get a signal regardless of what service I use?" I have heard both stories, one saying that cell towers are used for any service provider and one saying that cell towers are vendor specific. I thought maybe someone here might know the answer. Doc

So are you now saying that all the blather about how bowhunters are whiners and how they think they own the woods and how they should learn to share the woods with the muzzleloaders like the enlightened ones in the northern zone was not really something you meant? I kind of took that as meaning that you were in favor of muzzleloading seasons being jammed into the southern zone bow seasons. That was all just B.S. that you just said for effect? OK, I can accept that. I thought it was rather stupid stuff to be saying in the first place and I can certainly see why you would be backing away from it all now. I've got to admit that one does need a scorecard to keep up with just what you do believe. Doc

What do you mean? Did you tan the hides before selling them? Doc

So why did you guys decide to get into muzzle loaders? Doc

Okay ..... the springloaded feature may save the legality of them. Apparently unless they are moving forward through something, they collapse back down by themselves. Note that in the video, everytime she backed off the pressure on the tip, the blades retracted. That means that as soon as the come to rest, the blades collapse. In the collapsed position, the profile is not in the legally defined "barbed" configuration. That all does bring up some interesting questions about how well those blades might deploy. It is only the force on that little tip that forces them into an open position and yet you have all that force on the much wider blades themselves that is trying to keep them closed. I'm sure it must work or they wouldn't have invested all that money to make and market them, but it's not real obvious that they would be all that reliable. Again, watching videos and reading words does not beat having the things in your hands to actually mess around with. It sure is an interesting concept. Doc

I did read about a deer eating a fish once. You know how people talk about goats eating anything. Well, it's just another kind of goat ..... lol. Doc

I do have coverage and do carry my phone. But it stays off, and will unless I have an emergency where I need help. I don't really want that stuff brought into my hunting. I hate phones anyway, and really don't feel the need to be wired up and in contact all the time. I have to laugh everytime I see these people who can't even drive down the road without having that thing stuck in their ear. Or how about the people who think that everybody in a restaurant needs to listen to their conversations....lol. At any rate, for me hunting time is not socializing time or game time or surfing time so the thing stays turned off. Doc

No twists ....... no spin ....... I am only responding to your own statements as you post them. Doc