YoungBucksTasteBetter

FYI..something I think we can all agree on as an item worth watching. With the Kenyan socialist in the White House, it's not clear that the US Constitution will be given first consideration when it comes time to ratify this treaty. http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7004

Direction is to move doe harvest under DMP only. While the draft plan doesn't say this, somewhere in this topic there is a clarification that bow/ml hunters will still get a tag, but it won't be the either sex / antlerless tags you have been getting. I heard the same at a recent club meeting - DMP will become the only way you'll be allowed to take a doe.

Karma caught up with me on this one..had a Momma/Cub out in the wife's garden last night and again at first light this morning - - had me out there talking loudly and clapping my hands to move 'em along (with a can of bear spray at the ready). They left, but only after staring at me long enough to let me know it was their idea, not mine.

Actually I've heard the way to outrun them is bring a buddy with you...in case of a bear encounter, just make sure you can outrun your buddy......

Looking forward to it...oldest youngster is finally old enough to hunt in NY!!! Anyone try for them with a .17 HMR? (and if so, are all the stories of lost meat true?)

Region 3 biologist was at Ulster County Federation meeting on Thursday night and re-iterated that this wasn't a one buck rule -- a tag will come with bow / muzzleloader license but it will be buck only as the direction is to move all antlerless harvest under the DMP system.

That does suck...we were just there in April and kids took a bucket full of fish out of the place. I guess that's the last time I'll recommend them to anybody. Hopefully you find a better place to take your girls.

3C / Northern end of Ulster County. I have a group of 3 hens that work their way around the house every morning helping me keep the lawn tick-free. Only one of them nested successfully - she started out with 9 poults, she's down to 5 as of Thurs morning.

It's an animal species so rare the trophy hunting community hasn't yet found a bunch of reasons to tell us we can't harvest it...a deer-less whitetailed antler. From the spread on the 2 side beams, and the slight downward tilt of the main body, I'd say this is a 3.5 year old.

The DEC 2010 deer harvest summary shows breakout by county and town, so you can see the quantity of deer taken by area. There are couple of tables in there regarding antler points on deer taken, but I don't think it gives you the size data you were looking for: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/2010deerrpt.pdf I don't have a copy here anymore, the I think NY Fish and Game magazine does an hunting preview every year where it highlights best hunting by county - - I think they get into antler/deer size stats you are looking for there.

Since this was a bear with cubs - note the restriction in the Southern zone as well: "In the Southern Zone, you may not shoot a cub or a bear that should be known to be a cub, shoot any bear from a group of bears, or shoot or take a bear from it's den"

Same guy (Henry Lamb) with a post from 2011 (I figured something more current than the 1999 post would be good): http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/lamb/110214

You make a good point..I had to do a little digging because I only vaguely remember the food fight over this in Congress in the late '90s. Here's a quote from an old article from that time that addresses the core issue: "The United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) then (1995) published the "Global Biodiversity Assessment,"an 1140-page instruction book for the implementation of the 18-page treaty. Page 993 of this massive document clearly states that "The Wildlands Project" is "central" to the implementation of the Convention on Biological Diversity. The Wildlands Project, written by Dr. Reed Noss (with grants from The Nature Conservancy and the Audubon Society), seeks to set aside "at least" 50 percent of North America as "core wilderness areas," off-limits to human beings, and then "manage" most of the rest of the land as "buffer zones" around the core areas." I'm not sure what makes me feel worse - the idea that the UN has mandate over US soil, or that we (the US taxpayer) are helping them do it through the US Park Service. Here's the article..it's an old post but matches what I remember from the news at the time: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=5399

I think your level of worry depends on the bear's behavior. If it runs off when it realizes you are there..all is well. If it hangs around or tries to get a better look at you that could be an issue, as it might have had encounters with other humans that have acclimated it to human presence or worse yet has set expectations that you might have food, etc. If you see behavior that worries you give a call the local DEC office and see what they say. Also, be careful if you have the little one out with you - there's something about a full diaper that attracts bears (do a google on the attack that happened in Sullivan a few years back - I'm not trying to be morbid but it's stuff I think a new father wants to be aware of).

Article from a guy who makes his living chasing trophy bucks, asking if this has all gone too far. http://www.petersenshunting.com/2011/06/30/is-quality-deer-management-ruining-hunting/

Boone & Crockett Fair Chase Statement FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. HUNTER ETHICS Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of conservation of natural resources. Hunting in today's world involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets: 1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations. 2. Respect the customs of the locale where the hunting occurs. 3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter. 4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as certain and quick as possible. 5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment. 6. Recognize that these tenets are intended to enhance the hunter's experience of the relationship between predator and prey, which is one of the most fundamental relationships of humans and their environment.

Pope & Young FAIR CHASE AFFIDAVIT To be entered into the Pope & Young Club Records, the animal must meet the minimum scoring requirements, and must be taken in complete compliance with the controlling game laws and the Rules of Fair Chase. The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions: 1. Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. 2. From any power vehicle or power boat. 3. While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. 4. By “Jacklighting” or shining at night. 5. By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. 6. By the use of any power vehicles or power boat for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. 7. By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating, or pursuing game, or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. 8. Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.

This exchange brings up an interesting question - how many of the 132 folks claiming support for AR in the poll at the top of this post are doing so knowing that it has no impact on them where they hunt? I'm thinking it must be truly easy to support a reg that tells a guy halfway across the state that he can't shoot a spike when you know you still have that option for yourself. (I know, I know...all of the AR supporters only hunt mature bucks, and they'd never think of filling that tag with a spike/forker on the last day). Read the 14 pages from the NY deer team lead's "Summary of New York's Pilot Antler Restriction Program" again. After 5 deer seasons, "a majority of hunters report being dissatisfied and having unmet expectations with (1) the number of older, larger-antlered bucks seen, (2) the number of antlered bucks compared to antlerless deer seen, and (3) their opportunity to shoot large-antlered bucks." This is based on data gathered from the hunters who live/hunt in the pilot AR zone. The AR program has failed to deliver as advertised - it should be dropped from the pilot zone. Maybe instead of writing letters telling DEC to force a guy on the other side of the state to let little bucks walk, you should be volunteering your own backyard for these restrictions.

Eldred has 3 trout ponds..2 "catch and you must keep" - you will pay ~$6.50 per lb for the trout you catch. The ponds are always well stocked and it's a great way to break a youngster in - guaranteed action. You can bring all your own gear, and for 50 cents/fish they'll even clean them for you. The 3rd pond is fly fishing catch and release (barbless hooks only). They also have a couple of lakes with Bass (catch and release only) and you can rent a boat. Their website has all that info. As long as you are ok with the cost of the fish, I recommend the experience...it's a great way to give the kids some action and they typically have quite a few big fish (I have a picture somewhere of my 4 year old holding up a trout that's almost as big as she is, etc)

I don't think he is saying that, I think he is saying that why should the rules cater to him more so then others. Personally, in my area, from my experience and others around my area AR's have not decreased the opportunity, its actually increased the opportunity to harvest a buck. Last year I think I saw one buck I could not take due to AR's every other buck legal to take according to the regs. I appreciate what you are saying. Unfortunately, that's not the experience I (and the guys I hunt with) have had in the northern end of the Pilot zone..our experience matches what the DEC document shows - ARs haven't produced more/bigger bucks - the buck kill has dropped by about 20% compared to pre-AR harvest levels and the bucks we are seeing/harvesting aren't physically any bigger than what we saw pre-AR and we still see a significant percentage of sub-legal (in AR terms) bucks walking around. From our perspective (and the data in the DEC write-up suggests the majority of the hunters in the AR zone agree) the AR's have failed to produce the advertised result. In my opinion, the ARs should be dropped based on the outcome of the pilot program.

Wow..so the guy who works in the private sector (so in these times can't count on getting time off during the season), who is raising kids (which means family obligations on the holidays during the season), etc...he buys his license knowing he might only get a few days out there, and all he asks is that the game regs be written to give him an opportunity to harvest a deer if he sees one. In your world, because he isn't "dedicated enough", therefore he doesn't count?

The young ones taste better - ;D - you can prove it to yourself. 36 hours marinated in wine/butter, just enough time on good hot grill to bring the meat to a hot pink center, and you won't even need a knife to cut the pieces. By comparison, some of the older ones I've shot (yep, it's a dirty little secret in the trophy hunting community, but there were bucks in the AR zone with more than 3 points on one side before the ARs went in), no matter how you cook them you have to saw through the meat even when using a sharp blade. I'll take that tender button buck over the old, stinking, no fat left on him because he's been running the does around, "mature buck" any day. There's a reason the cattle industry puts the young ones on the supermarket shelf and puts the old ones into the category "cutters and canners". If you define "quality deer" by the culinary value of the meat you put on your table, then it's the young 'uns you want. It's also why you should write a letter to the DEC telling them to do away with the forced, mandatory AR's because you want the choice to harvest deer that are worthy of your dinner table, not just some trophy hunter's wall.

I do believe my "local expert"..Jeremy Hurst is the head of the NY Deer team, and he co-authored the 14 page "A summary of New York's Pilot Antler Restriction Program". I think they did a nice job with this program - - they surveyed the same hunters throughout the pilot program, and correlated all the data back to 2003-2004 before the ARs went in. The data shows that the majority of bucks taken are now 2.5 years old. It also shows that the hunters surveyed are not happy with the results, because they aren't seeing more, older bucks. Here's the quote on page 8: "A majority of hunters reported being dissatisfied and having unmet expectations with (1) the number of older, larger antlered bucks seen, (2) the number of antlered bucks compared to antlerless deer seen, and (3) their opportunity to shoot larger-antlered bucks" There are other data markers in that document that show that other changes in the AR zone were also seen in the broader region as a whole, which means the AR didn't change anything in many instances. The net of that statement is clear: After 5 deer seasons in the pilot zone, the ARs didn't work. The deer harvest has more 2.5 year old deer in it for sure, but that doesn't translate to more/bigger bucks walking around. Since the AR pilot area, and the area now being proposed for mandatory, forced ARs (covering the whole 700,000 acre Catskill Park) is predominantly public land, I believe the data in this 14 page document is sufficient justification for removing mandatory, forced ARs from the regulations, and the "choice" to take a trophy of one's own choosing returned to those of us who are only able to hunt on public land, have limited time afield, etc.

These programs don't give the "average guy" anything he can use. I'd like to see how these "pros" would do on state land in NY. No ATV, no high fence, no spreading bait around under the stand and/or hunting over a bait plot made up of non-indigenous plants. And of course, no $10,000 fee just to walk onto the place. C'mon boys - walk yourself a mile in on some old Catskill trail, read the sign, adjust for the other hunters that will be out there, and let's see how good a "hunter" you really are......

If we had a “choice” to go kill a 2.5 or 3.5 year old buck without AR we would not need ARs. The fact is if you take 60-80% of the bucks before they reach 1.5 years old there are very limited adults bucks to harvest. It not rocket science it’s just math. I have to bring you back to page 43 of the 2011-2015 plan. "DEC considers the primary impacts of mandatory antler restrictions to be of a social nature for hunters and does not anticipate biological impacts for deer." I agree with you on one point - there's no science behind AR at all. We have one group of hunters who believe that ARs will give them the easy path to shooting a "trophy buck", and with the help of national organizations/money they are imposing those regs upon those of us who couldn't care less about how big the deer's headgear is. In that sense, guys like yourself are taking "choice" away from those of us who don't subscribe to the trophy antler farming mentality. If there's no biological reason for a regulation, then the DEC has no business imposing the regulation. If you want to shoot older bucks - great, do it voluntarily, and that also means you have to make the investment necessary to grow/hold those older bucks on the properties that you hunt. Forcing your approach to hunting (actually, it isn't hunting, it's farming) on the rest of us either via the DEC's regs or by these backdoor legislative moves isn't acceptable from my point of view.