Mr VJP

An article on the economic effects of a total ban on lead in ammo. It's happening in California. Often, that's where all of this stuff starts. http://www.guns.com/2014/09/18/proposed-lead-ammo-ban-to-cause-huge-price-jump-shortages/

The problem is, a lot of gun owners who only have hunting rifles that are standard bolt actions and lever guns, etc., despise gun owners that have AR's & AK's. They have a real holier than thou attitude and actually side with the anti's on banning them. They were shocked, however, when they didn't object to the SAFE Act, only to find it has parts that infringe on their guns and ammo in other ways. To this day they don't want the SAFE Act repealed, only changed so it won't affect them. These gun owners need a real come to Jesus intervention by the rest of the state's gun owners.

Vlywaterman, When the rain stopped today, I had the chance to test the copper ammo you gave me at the Sportsman show. I took 3 of my own 30-06 hand loads and tested them first. They are Hornady 165gr boat tail spire point bullets. These are copper jackets over lead cores. Then I fired the 3 Federal Premium Copper 165gr spire points you gave me. They were all fired from My Kimber 8400 Montana with a Leupold Vari-X II 3x9 scope at a distance of 100 yards. I can testify the copper bullets show equal accuracy to my carefully developed hand loads. The one bullet that went a little left of the other two was my fault, not the bullet's. Thanks for the chance to test them out. I hope you find this information useful.

This is the point.

The point is, it happened, we arrested the perps, they were convicted, one executed, the others jailed, and it stopped! Not so with the Muslim terrorists. They have grown to be an even larger threat, with more attacks since 9/11 and they continue to vow to kill us. Nobody is saying any victims should be forgotten, but preventative measures need to be focused on the current threat, and not wasted on those the government wants us to believe are a current viable threat. It seems to me our government isn't worried about real threats to it's citizens, as much as perceived threats to it's own power and control. Radical Islam grows stronger and Obama goes golfing, but conservative groups are targeted by the IRS for persecution and Lois Lerner's e-mails are lost? Go figure. If you really want to honor the victims, make sure we doing everything we can to prevent even more!

OK, I'll let you call them what you want to, even though Orwell warned us all about government double speak. Doc, you do realize Clinton was President when that happened, right? How many years ago was that? It was 20 years ago now. What similar types of "homegrown" attacks have happened since then? Now, what terrorist attacks not performed by "homegrown" terrorists have happened since then? I'll choose to focus on today's threat, rather than something Leftists and government want to misdirect me towards in order to deflect outrage from what is happening right now. Be careful how you allow the government to label people. Pretty soon we, as gun owners, conservatives, NRA members, anti-SAFE ACT voters and pretty much anyone who protests the government's tyranny, may find the terrorist label affixed to ourselves. FYI, they already think of us as terrorists, they just haven't started vigorously calling us that yet. Maybe they'll have us sew a yellow six point star on our clothes first.

Question is, when they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt you are hated and not wanted in NY because you own guns, or are a conservative, are you going to remain a resident of that state?

It sounds to me like you're OK with expanding the terrorist label to any group of American citizens the government decides to label as wackos or extremists. I see that as a way for those who keep making excuses for radical Muslims to try to show we have people born in our own country that are just as bad as Muslim jihadists. That is in no way even logical. Right Wing wackos want to overthrow the government. Muslim terrorists want ALL Americans DEAD! I still can't understand why they do that. To me that is aiding and abetting the enemy. Perhaps they feel they can turn them all into folks that will support, and vote for, Democrats. I also see it as a way that is currently being used by the Left, to demonize certain right wing factions in America that would never support the Leftists and Progressives. That's where I get angry. Tea Party folks are not terrorists because they wish to control spending and require fiscal responsibility. They are not racists either. Just because they don't have a lot of minorities? The last thing a lot of minorities want to do is what the Tea Party advocates. That's just one example off the top of my head, but I think you know what I'm saying. Calling everyone a terrorist minimizes the power of the word, just like calling everyone a racist does. It takes real horror and dedication to a cause to earn the label of terrorist. BTW, don't try to underestimate them by saying they have some demented thought lodged in their sick minds. They firmly believe it is the US that has demented and sick thoughts lodged in our minds. They're not sick or crazy, THEY'RE THE ENEMY! That's what I will never forget about 9/11, the people that attacked us. (For those who still don't get it, it wasn't the Tea Party or the NRA!)

I've been bow hunting for 40 years. Started out with a recurve, went to a Browning compound that must be 35 years old now and still have, bought an Onieda Phantom about 15- 20 years ago and that is the bow I use most of the time. I also have an old Colt manufactured recurve ( or at least it says Colt Firearms Mfg on it, but was most likely made by some other firm ) that is in mint condition and shoots very well. I use it a lot each season when I'm feeling old school. I could buy any new bow I wanted, but once I get good with a bow, I hate to switch and start all over again with a new one. I know my old bows like I know the back of my hand, and that gives me great confidence. Unless a bow breaks or starts acting really weird, I just keep using it year after year.

There may be physical similarities, but ideologically, they are very different. But in reality, Oklahoma was a mass murder. It was done by American citizens and done as a one shot crime. The Weather Underground in the 60's was never referred to as a terrorist group. They bombed a lot of government offices and declared war on the government. Was it because they were Leftists and not right wing loonies? Many of them are free to roam today and Bill Ayers is even considered a political leader and friend of Obama. I think that's very wrong, terrorist or not. Terrorism is an ongoing campaign that's purpose is to kill foreign enemies and instill fear for long term tactical gain. It's an undeclared war by people without a country they affiliate with. that makes it impossible to attack their homeland and get international sanctions against them. Nobody is defending the Oklahoma bombers, but every time someone compares them to Muslim extremists, it minimizes the threat posed by these jihadists. The same thing happens when we allow politicians to use the word "terrorists" when they want to demonize and villify political enemies like the Tea Party, Conservatives, The NRA and gun owners.

There is a very big difference between the Oklahoma bombing and the Muslim extremists. Oklahoma was an act of revenge directed at a federal building and designed to avenge the government's actions at Waco, TX. No other attacks were planned, and no other attacks like it have happened since then. It was a bombing, not an act of terrorism. (I still say if they had bombed the IRS building in Wash, D.C., they would be heroes today. LOL!) Now, radical Muslim extremists are not looking to attack the US Government, they want to show Americans our government is incapable of protecting us. I believe they are correct about that. Terrorism is an ongoing evil that, from the radical Muslim view, will not end until every American is DEAD! That's terrorism. So when anyone points to Oklahoma as some sort of defense of radical Muslims, they are making a very big mistake in their comparison defending terrorists.

Birders are buying the stamps, but are they signing them? No. they collect them and sell them years later for a profit.

Every single foreign terrorist attack against America in the last 20 years has been perpetrated by Extremist Islamic young males. Never forget who attacked us on 9/11, especially by not saying so! BTW, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" Barry Goldwater

Unfortunately, only a lawyer well versed in the SAFE Act should be trusted to tell you for sure. Too much of it is subject to interpretation. Fortunately, most county Sheriffs have said they won't enforce it. The State Police seem to be going after people though.

The law would have made any firearm "transfer" without an FFL and a NICS check a felony. Giving your gun to anyone else would've been considered a "transfer" not matter what the situation involved. Give it time. It will become law sooner or later. The anti's never give up on any gun law.

Non of this is a problem for me. I divorced 23 years ago and have been single ever since. I do anything I like, anytime I want. I'll try anything once, but if I don't like it, I will never do it again.

Well, tomorrow is 9/11/14. Maybe the crazy jihadists will make good on their threats and take NYC out. Maybe that would wake up all the looney liberals and Astorino would then have a chance. In NY state, it will probably take something like that to wise these Leftist idiots up.

Regulation should always be the last resort. We are allowing our liberties and our freedom to be chipped away at and minimized with each new regulation, to the point we have become a big government nanny state. You're free to do whatever they let you do. As far as the government requiring us to strap our kids in, how much farther has the government gone with what they allow us to do with our kids? A little while ago a woman was arrested for letting her 8 year old play in the park alone. The amount of regulation the government has put into effect regarding the rearing of children has become a nightmare. We, as free citizens, have seen enough government abuse of the people, to know by now we have to look at anything the government wants to do with a jaundiced eye and be suspicious of it's motives. Americans have allowed the government to gain too much control, in spite of the Constitution that was written to prevent that. We need to start restraining the limits of regulation and then roll back what has already been allowed. The abuses of the EPA are a fine example of government out of control. Like I've said before, non-lead ammo is fine, but mandating it, by threat of severe punishment, would be another sign we are becoming a police state.

Born I found this old thread for you. It's a good article, written by the wife of a hunter, who is very happy about it, mainly for what it offers for their children. Maybe you can print it out for her to read. It may be a good place to start. http://goodmenprojec...ter 07/16/2014)

I agree. Not a problem

I sent you a message just now. I await your reply.

Ahh, seat belts. Good point to bring up. You do realize seat belts were first introduced by the car manufacturers as a safety OPTION, right? It was the government that took that great safety idea and decided it had to be mandatory. I'm not saying they aren't good. In fact you're a fool not to use them. But look at it today. First they passed a law saying if you were pulled over for something, a cop could also write a ticket if you weren't wearing the seat belt. It was a secondary offense, meaning you couldn't be stopped just for that. Then they decided to push it further and make it a primary offense that you could be stopped for, even if you did nothing else wrong. Plus, the cost of the seat belts in the car are passed on to the buyer of the car. And now we have automatically controlled locking and retracting 3 point seat belts, with buzzers to warn you to buckle them, and now airbags all over the car to keep you even safer. It is estimated the average American car has $5000 worth of government mandated emission and safety features that the buyer of the car is forced to pay for. In 1974, only 40 years ago, you could get a brand new, fully loaded Chevy Monte Carlo for $5000. Don't argue, because I bought one that year. Today, that same car is $30,000. That's also because the value of the dollar today is way down compared to what it was then. Motorcycle helmet laws are a little easier to understand, but I still believe the rider should have the option to wear one, rather than a law making him wear one. (I can't wait until the government decides we all have to wear helmets in the car too!) That's what worries me about regulation. It's the insidious encroachment that always follows any power given to authority. They are never satisfied with a little control. They always want to take it further. With all of the other problems we are faced with in this country that America needs to address, like the economy, the value of the dollar, jobs, terrorists and war, you would think our elected officials would deal with all of that prior to dealing with this kind of regulatory tyranny. Maybe they do it to keep the masses distracted from the real worries they can't solve. Classic misdirection to fool the people, just like a magician employs. Nothing to see here folks, look at that stuff over there. I wonder.

Culver, I think that issue is covered by using the right bullet. If using a rapidly expanding bullet in the 06 for that shot, you may fail. Whereas using a Barnes solid copper bullet in the .223, you won't. Velocity and energy will carry the bullet through, as long as the range is limited to the amount of velocity and energy required for the job. This guy killed a 150 hog with one @ 225 yards and shows photos of the bullet he recovered. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94628-223-Barnes-70-Grain-TSX-Performance

I believe the point the author of the article makes very well is, when the right type of bullet is used in a .223, and the shots are kept under 150 yards or so, that cartridge is as effective as any other round you could choose to use. Keep in mind that's "effective", not "devastating". Because of the round's top end velocity, when a good bullet designed for deer is used, the hydro-static shock effect will do as much damage to a deer's vitals as a much larger round, albeit only at shorter range, since the velocity falls off fast. With bullet placement being the primary concern, I think it's about time to start admitting the "margin for error" argument is a myth. You either make a good, clean killing shot on a deer, or you don't. The round you do it with really doesn't matter all that much.

If you are referring to the nightmare NY gun owners will be going through in the future, I agree. I had hoped for a miracle, but hope is fading fast.