mike rossi

Litmus Test? A real litmus test is using a piece if litmus paper to test the ph of a substance. But it is also used in slang terms to describe an evaluation of attitudes. One example of a “litmus test” is to survey both the incumbent candidates and the challenging candidates about special interest issues, particularly about issues which do not yet reflect in their voting records. Written surveys about attitudes toward mourning dove hunting can access a politician’s level of support or opposition for this issue. Generally when a politician fails to respond to a survey or omits answers to certain questions it is assumed that he/she is opposed to that issue or part of the issue. The results of that survey, including information on what voting district each candidate is running for, can then be distributed to the special interest group or the entire sporting community. The overall sporting community probably would not be interested in the attitudes of their state representatives toward mourning dove hunting and conservation. However legislative bills are often packaged together in one bundle known as an “omnibus bill”. We believe that term may be synonymous with the term “Act” but we are not sure and do not think it really matters for our purpose. Some people feel omnibus bills are not democratic , however. Nevertheless, bundling a dove bill into an omnibus bill containing other bills such as the more popular whitetail deer management issues might be an option. There is still another way to throw around the term litmus test… There currently is a draft management plan for mute swans open for public comment. The nature of the opposition against eradicating mute swans is very similar to the opposition to allow sustainable mourning dove hunting. Although we have been concerned about the negative impact on mute swans for some time and were aware of the national court challenges erroneously citing the migratory bird treaty act of 1916, the new management plan caught us blind-sided and we just learned of it a few days ago. We want to make it clear that the issue of mute swans certainly is very important on its own face and sportsman-conservationists should become engaged in the issue right away, as the deadline for comment is in February. However we also want you to consider it as a “fire drill” or litmus test… We have received very little response to our e-mail blasts regarding the management plan. One person was critical, others sarcastic, and a handful of others supportive but gave no indication they were going to participate in the stakeholder input nor that they were going to relay the information to their network. So here is the litmus test: If a few days ago we attempted the same outreach, but the issue was either a draft management plan for mourning doves or a legislative bill in the state house to designate mourning doves a migratory game bird thereby paving the way for the DEC to establish a dove hunting season, would the participation and the networking be appreciably more?

CORRECTION: Although the DEC has been shooting mute swans since 1993 under the current management plan, they are only authorized to do so on Division of Fish, Wildlife, and Marine Resources Lands. Obviously this is as good as next to nothing and the results show it. Under the old plan the population goal was 500 birds by 2013. The population not only is way higher at 2,200 but it actually increased since 1993! NY now has the largest population of free ranging mute swans in the Atlantic Flyway and is the only state in the AF which has not reduced its population. The proposed new management plan is much better you will see if you read the draft. I am sure most of you will support it. Let the DEC know what you think before the currently open comment period closes in February! The antis are already opposing much of the plan and if they succeed in altering key strategies the management of these pests will continue to be hindered as is the case with the 1993 plan. All of the above probably explains Lawdwaz's thought that the DEC must be aware of a particular group of birds, yet did not act. Also, I misinformed Ants by telling him to report birds near his home and that the DEC would remove them - although DEC wildlife staff may appreciate people reporting birds they are unaware of, they apparently are not authorized to shoot them outside of DFWMR Lands under the 1993 plan.

The "field marks" of the mute are an "S" shaped neck; orange bill with only part of it black, black part looks like a bump or knobs. The 2 species of native swans have straight necks and black bills except the juveniles have pinkish bills. Besides the "field marks" you identify birds by behavior , habitat, and their voice. You can listen to bird voices on the Cornell Ornithology Labs website. If the ones near your house seem to be mutes, let the regional DEC office know about it. If you read the draft plan, you will see that the DEC has been actively shooting them for some time now, so if you make a report it shouldn't be as if you are speaking a foreign language or something... I would talk to wildlife, not law enforcement.

Anybody write up their public comment yet? My wife and I are still reviewing the literature and working on ours. I just checked the DEC's facebook page and there are already a number of posts opposing the draft plan. The draft plan is only 11 pages and is written in plain language - check it out and get your comments in before the deadline! Although I stress the importance on this issue on its own face, I think the participation or lack of is a pretty good indicator of how effectively and how large our influence will be on a future dove bill or a mourning dove management plan. So far on face book we ticked one guy off who quit our page and a few others showed support but said little other than variations of "Kill them"! Public comment like that is a liability, not an asset. There is enough time to do some light research, ask questions - including discussions right here, and use that info to write good public comment. On the same note, there also is plenty of time to get others in your network engaged and involved. I am going to be honest, if we see complacency and lack of interest and earnest effort regarding the draft mute swan plan we are seriously going to reevaluate continuing to pursue a dove season. Establishing a dove season and supporting the passage of a DEC management plan for mute swans can be compared to the old coon hunters' saying: If a dog cant whip a woodchuck, he sure as heck wont whip a coon"...

I got back to Nick and told him I realized I had a temporary case of insanity and lapse of judgment thinking I could help him with a turkey dog. I told him about the turkey outfitter in Candor who might be able to help him. E collars have evolved and so have the methods of using them. I am old enough to remember the early models which had one button - HOT. At that time nobody really knew how to use them the way they are used today. Back then they were merely used to punish a dog when it disobeyed a learned command. Today they have multi levels of correction, new training methods have been developed utilizing e collars, and the modern use of these tools actually makes training less hard on dogs.

Although , I agree with what I think doe whacker is alluding to - that people that work with dogs (not just trainers by the way) have abusers among them. However, the trainers who tell you that they exclusively use positive reinforcement do not fully understand how a dog's mind works and how dogs and people interact. Interviewing a trainer as you would a babysitter is fair cautionary advice, but it needs to be put into the proper perspective.

Your credibility went right out the window by condemning the speaking out against slob hunters. I am believe it or not - sick of arguing with people, it is much easier to go with the flow and get along, but you are being irresponsible with that statement and compelling me to be a prick... I agree with you we are self destructing but for much different reasons than you do. However, I agree with Doc that we hunters are a very diverse community and the community of gun owners is even much larger and more diverse. I don't want to have the actions, motivations, and mentality of other hunters being perceived as my own. If you do, so be it, that is your bussiness. As a matter of fact when talking to a hostile landowner or a person on the fence about the morality of hunting the first thing I do is draw a clear line. To say one of my duck hunts can be compared to the way someone hunts deer, turkey coyotes is ridiculous. More ridiculous is to make that comparison when any form of hunting is done irresponsibly, unethically, or illegally. It is also ridiculous to make a statement that all hunters have a strong conservation ethic or that hunters are generally knowledgeable about conservation - because generally they are not...

Did you read the DEC draft? It says they are palatable...

A good trainer will produce a better dog and might even prevent a novice from creating bad habits or worse bringing the dog close to the point of no return - I hesitate to say "ruin" because any dog is salvageable, however it becomes unpractical or unwise to salvage some of them. Hiring a trainer is expensive, but when you are dealing with hunting dogs, it may not be as costly relative to doing it yourself. The reason is because you need birds , private land, and training hunting dogs is regulated under NY state environmental conservation law. Not all, but most dog training must be done on private land and with released birds. The permit to possess live game birds alone costs $200 and there is red tape involved. It is questionable if the common use of rock doves (pigeons) is actually legal under the most conservative interpretation of the relevant laws. On the other hand, training your own dog is a satisfying journey if you have both the time & dedication to follow through. As a novice your learning curve will dictate the dogs and that is the most obvious advantage to hiring a trainer - he is not learning (never totally true, but you get my drift) and your dog will develop quicker with less setbacks. Off course there are many quacks in the dog training business, most of them talk real good too. As a matter of fact they are far better sales people then trainers. Often the worse ones have fancy facilities and woe clients with their material wealth. So beware... I work dogs and depending on your dogs temperament I would be willing to evaluate it for you, send me a private message with your phone number and I will give you a call.

I need to correct myself. According to the draft, on page 4 and in paragraph 4, it states that this bird already is classified as a migratory game bird AND the DEC does in fact have the authority to set a hunting season. It also states in that paragraph that hunting could be useful in reaching population goals. I would really like to know when and how the game classification was made, to apply it to mourning doves. The DEC along with the Atlantic Flyway Council set a population goal of 500 birds by 2013. As other states in the flyway reached their goal, NY did not and instead our population grew in size and distribution. NY currently has more mute swans than any other state in the Atlantic Flyway around 2200 - way off the goal of 500. The final goal is to eliminate them from the state by 2025. Trout Fisher asks how they taste: In NY they taste a lot like eagle, gull, and loon - they taste illegal... In other states I imagine they are quite good...

I think I get your point and agree it is "interesting". What they adopt in this management plan and how the public comment influences the final product is going to answer some questions. I suspect there has been and still is significant political pressure to protect mute swans. In NY wildlife not partially protected as game or unprotected - is fully protected. I believe that is the current designation of mute swans, despite being an introduced species, a deleterious one at that... By the way, when structuring your public comment, read the draft first and keep it fairly relevant to it. The first instinct of the sporting community is going to be to suggest a hunting season. I don't think suggesting a hunting season is viable and I will tell you why I think that. First of all you do not manage a pest species you want to extirpate the same way you manage a game species you want to sustain. Classifying mute swans as game and regulating them by hunting would be hog wash. Plus, as is the case with mourning doves, the DEC does not have the authority to designate them as game and cannot set a season until they are so designated. At this point after all the discussions about mourning doves, I don't think we have to delve into how difficult that would be and that it would require a bill to be introduced, pass both houses, and approved by the governor.... I am not sure if the DEC can designate a species as unprotected however.. I suspect they can, especially when it involves introduced species, otherwise everything from swine and rock doves would have needed legislative approval... Designating unprotected status to mute swans would be more appropriate and make sense. That would allow taking them year-round, unless the DEC deems that as is the case with swine, that it would interfere with eradication efforts because it will scatter and educate them... Have a voice in mute swan management and get your comment in dude, don't wait for the other guy, the antis are flooding the DEC with comment, as they do with mourning dove management issues...

Lawdwaz, I would say at this stage the volunteering that is needed is to do as you have just done by sharing your experiences with mute swans, but primarily to participate in the public comment period which is open right now. The other important thing to do is to tell others in your networks about mute swans and ask them to immediately get engaged in the public comment opportunity before the deadline is reached. The state has in fact been banding mute swans. Everyone understands the dilemma between banding a pest and releasing it to study it for the big picture and not just killing it when you got the proverbial bird in hand. But my point is regarding volunteering - the DEC or FWS might not want to use volunteers with such a large, aggressive and dangerous species. However if they did or do in the future, the people that step up to the plate are very likely to be non hunters , some of them anti hunters. Such has been the case with mourning dove banding and non game in general. The DEC already issues nuisance take permits and DEC staff shoot mute swans. I reported the location of some mute swans to the DEC and I was told that they make an effort to shoot them when the public is not likely to see them do it - in another words they hide it... This new management plan proposal should allow hunters or anyone to take them year -round. It should allocate money from the conservation fund for eradication efforts, not just shooting on sight, but also nest / egg destruction, and whatever form of lethal control is available. This may require hiring additional staff or the hired killers working for the US Dept. of Agriculture's division of Wildlife Services. We all need to include those suggestions in our public comment.

http://youtu.be/bJOg0yI3uaY

Here are some videos to educate yourself about the impact of these birds to help you write your public comment. Take a little time and check these out, I think the total time to watch ALL of these is like 18 minutes... Mute Swan Video Play List http://youtu.be/8zdd7JkmHt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTgskf3QLCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaJa6pVOr5I&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sI0F-Szmtc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALI5sO5aSPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o83L4yaO3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOYarW-aokk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Railiy7JAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F20SKPMppQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv3DReGpPAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMADOUZRZQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BllnWV-BIDo

True, but there is still a huge loyalty phenomenon when it comes to political partisan. On top of that factor in the somewhat true belief of many that you are "wasting your vote" by voting for a candidate not endorsed as either major party... I don't see any way to get around the system besides holding politicians accountable to the facts and the truth, by exposing inaccurate propaganda and thereby exposing decisions made for votes. I think many people become angered when they discover they have been tricked, even if they believe in an issue, when they realize they have been lied to the natural reaction is to think about issues more carefully instead of falling back on loyalty to partisan ideology. Maybe its too late, you can thank your elders for the lack of foresight...

If this is a conservation issue, it should be addressed with structuring the hunting season for that section of the lake to avoid harassing the wintering eagles. Banning hunting entirely, while citing slobs not picking up empties and other complains about hunters leads one to believe this is not about conservation or even distributing recreation or wildlife resources fairly, but just anti hunting or fear of guns. The president of CNY Wildfowlers needs to temper his swagger however. As a waterfowl hunter and president of a waterfowl hunters organization he should be better informed and/or communicate better. Bird watchers and photographers have as much right to wildlife resources as hunters and hunting is not to be regulated in a manner which impacts any species, eagles or what have you. It is the DEC's statutory mandate to protect wildlife AND distribute wildlife resources equally and fairly. If this guy mouths off like that he is going to make all of us look foolish ...

Mute Swans are one of the worst introduced species in this country. Public comment on a NY management plan for mute swans is open right now... http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7076.html Mute swans are much larger than greater canada geese and extremely aggressive. They not only drown native ducks and geese, they also hog up and defend huge breeding territories (ie. an entire pond or small marsh) displacing breeding pairs of native waterfowl. Although wintering and fall staging birds congregate in large flocks, during the breeding season each waterfowl pair needs its own section of real estate – to make a long story short: waterfowl need MORE habitat to reproduce during the warm months then they do during the rest of the year… NY is one of the few states that prevent hunters from shooting them, unless they obtain a nuisance permit, otherwise the DEC shoots them. The reason behind this is, the HSUS filed a number of lawsuits claiming that this introduced species should be protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1916 - despite the fact they are not a native species and they don't even migrate. The state of Pennsylvania lost its first court battle with the Humane Society regarding mute swans, but after a lengthy appeal, won and now classifies mute swans as an unprotected species. These birds are quite aggressive, and like Canada geese sometimes attack people; 2 years ago one actually drowned a healthy 40 year old man while he was kayaking. If you search YouTube there are numerous videos showing how aggressive these birds are. There are dozens of videos showing mute swans drowning native waterfowl; chasing native waterfowl -even adult honkers, right off the nest. In NY a wildlife species is classed into three management categories: As a game species such as pheasant. A game species is “protected” but the DEC may set regulated hunting seasons for them. Unprotected species such as wood chucks, red squirrels, porcupines; and the following birds; rock doves, monk parakeets, starling, and English sparrow. Fully Protected species. This classification would include species with conservation status’ ranging from least concern to endangered. In NY, the mourning dove and the mute swan are in this designation, along with the bald eagle, wood rat, and spruce grouse…. Although the management of mute swans is an extremely important issue on its own face; it would not be responsible to fail to consider the similarities between the efforts of the HSUS to protect mute swans and protect mourning doves. Not only are the unscientific premises, legal maneuvers and socio-political tactics similar; but the extremely high level of success in passing their agendas is also similar. We will address these similarities in a future report; we recommend that you follow us on face book for the most direct pipe to these reports. In regards to stake holder input: Be advised as in mourning dove management the DEC, FWS, and politicians will receive a ton of comment from anti-hunters and very little input from hunters. It is vital that we make a concerted effort to participate in this comment opportunity. We suggest that you use the content of this report to research the issue and along with citing specific you tube videos when constructing your letter. We don’t like form letters and also do not want to be condescending, but if anyone needs help writing a letter or wants us to craft a form letter, let us know. Whatever you do, act right now, do not wait and tell others in your network about this.

Sent you a PM, its to long, windy, and wordy to post, ...

One familiar example is Pitman Robertson Federal Funds - but even those are not "ear marked". The DEC would have to submit a grant application like they would any other time they access PR funds. And yes, there are other funding programs too - some of them which "ear mark' funds. If the Seneca herd was classed as a DPS it may be possible that there are in fact funds ear marked for DPS or otherwise "listed" species. Without any designation, it may be that this herd is being considered only a color phase of a very abundant and widespread species - the whitetail. Non government organizations have their own substantial budgets and can also apply for grants with matching dollars to leverage federal funds, with or without the DEC. For example, Pheasants Forever, one of the smaller organizations, has an annual budget of around $60 million dollars. There is money out there - its the job of a biologist, whether employed by the state or federal government or by a non government organization, to find that money and/or develop funding strategies.

There is public and private money for this. Even more money can be generated from trophy hunting as well as eco-tourism.

New genes in the population would have more impact than predation. The fencing isolated animals and allowed the recessive genes to persist in the population. As soon as the recessive animals start breeding with more typical whitetails they will brown up. If this herd was designated as a "distinct population segment" it would enjoy some extra protection. From what you are saying, it sounds like they are not classed as such. Conservation groups petition all the time for these designations, I wonder why not with these animals?

Posting that report and opening it to discussion on here and elsewhere to spread awareness about the situation would be something someone can do...

Here is the link, it is a working link. If you see "video is unavailable" or you do not get directed to the video than go to you tube and type it in. We also did see some issue with searching by title, but that happens occasionally with you tube until a video gets enough views, even when you type in the exact title. Or just view it off of our face book page, click the hyper link if clicking on the start button does not work. Apparently there have been some changes to internet explorer or some crap like that and there are new kinks and glitches they have to iron out... But the video is up and running... http://youtu.be/bJOgOyl3uaY

LOL, No surprise you being an ex judge have more faith in the state police or any LE agency than me... I got no problem believing that their brains are over loaded with the simple task of creating a database... But I also know that they lack integrity and will cooperate with the governor and pull the stunt you are saying they are. (stalling until the election). About the only demograph stupider than police are hunters.. Yeah, they are the children that need to get burned first before they stop touching the stove... But if they don't care about high capacity guns you wont even get the small percentage who might act because of the ammo clause if all they hear about is the assault weapon clauses... You are trying to sell a product to costumers who don't want that product and not offering them an alternate product they will be interested in. Your "home boys" over at scope and what not, they should be sending written surveys to candidates running against incumbants. Those surveys should question their attitudes about every aspect of the safe act. The results of those surveys should be distributed to sportsmen - all sportsmen using whatever means, including face book and forums - not just their paid members.... Those candidates who do not respond, which will be most of them, should be graded as non responsive and only voted for if they are running against a pro safe act imcumbant... Otherwise treat those who blow off the survey as pro safe act. And do me a favor, throw in a question about a hunting season for mourning doves... You also mentioned face book. After 2 years experience with it I will tell you there is a learning curve to use it to the maximum advantage. There is also the ability to "promote" your page through face book itself but it costs money. We have not yet did that on ours, but if anyone sends us a donation we will be happy to do so and post the receipt so you know where the money went... I am sure your cause has more potential for donations however, so that is something you may want to look into. The other thing: when you set the page up - set it up as a cause page, not a personal page. That does prevent you from "inviting" people - as a matter of fact if you attempt to face book threatens to delete your page... But it offers other tools, including paid promotion if you choose to try it. Another thing that should be pointed out: People should not be concerned that their "feed" will go to cause pages they follow on face book. I suspect many people do not subscribe because they believe their feed will be distributed to cause pages as it is to personal pages that they "like". Not true, none of your feed will go to cause pages and cause pages cannot "like" personal pages to receive their feed. So if any of you do not follow our dove hunting page for that reason, be advised we are set up as a cause page and will not receive your feed...

Someone changed a setting on this site or the browser/operating system: because all of a sudden some of us who were able to copy & paste no longer are able to. After several tries, including doing what is said in post 6, I also tried to manually type in different hyperlinks. After posting I tested the links but they would not open and gave an error message indicating the link was not working. So each time that happened I went off this site and tested the links, which all worked fine. That leads a person to believe the content is just not wanted on this site or someone is fed up with outside links and it is being blocked. That may or may not be true, but it is a natural tendency to think that way. I am not going to change my computer settings and buck the system if the administers of this board don't want the material... Otherwise I would have just posted on this forum's facebook page.. Which leads to another comment: Some of you on here, some which have posted in this thread, follow our facebook pages. Even if we were able to post hyperlinks and what not; we need you to also share our material. Not only does it lessen our work load and widen our reach, but it also encourages others when many different people are involved. When few different people are involved, it has the opposite effect on others...