dbHunterNY

for me there would most definitely be change but it wouldn't keep me from hunting as much as I do now. maybe less at first and there would definitely be an emptiness inside for knowing i'll never shot a buck again. half a decade after I'd still be pumped that same to setup trail cams in hopes of buck pics. I'd be excited to see what they could grow even if I couldn't hunt them. I think it'd hunt with a bow and trad equipment more as harvesting a doe would be more rewarding that way not to me but to others as well. they wouldn't blow off my deer story because it was a doe. I bet bucks would be stupid and doe would be PhDs in eluding hunters more so than now. habitat efforts would still be the same time and energy wise but would be focused even more on cover and sanctuaries with food and water close by. especially because doe home ranges are significantly smaller. the doe I shot this past season that was probably over 8.5 years old would be the trophy of all trophies or the 158lb dressed one I shot years ago. i think with all the bucks and larger antlers shed hunting would consume much more of my time than now (which is hardly any). a lot would change but I would still hunt and hopefully fill my freezer. I just like to hunt and eat venison.

yea ok 60%. I think the DVD and some other stuff says 50% and that's why I had that in my head. all good we'll call it 60%. however, that's best case and could be as low as 25%. if you look at that graph you posted they start to level off at the later ages so you can determine a more finite antler size with smaller margin for "what could have been". also from just being around the hunting world hunting for big bucks a lot of deer make really big jumps later once they're growing body wise slows down. a lot of those outside factors come into play often in free range deer.

it's a deer that's seen it's second deer season. as in it's close to 1.5 years old; born in the early spring or late summer, living through that years season, and then living to see the next season. less than a year old is a fawn. fawns will have less than 6 teeth per side on their lower jaw. the third tooth back from the front, also called the 3rd premolar, will have 3 cusps or sections to the tooth, and at 2.5 years old they replace this baby tooth with one that has 2 cusps. don't get teeth and cusps mixed up and it's a pretty fail proof way to age deer to 2.5 years old from birth.

you jumping in your car with a highlighted route to the pharmacy? lol

I will admit that most hunters out there have a motivation where antlers trumps most everything else. That statement is absolutely false though. To practice "trophy" management based on antlers you more than likely use a lot of QDM practices then some different ones with antlers your primary focus. True QDM can have trophies as a byproduct but isn't any guarantee period. QDM focuses primarily on younger age class deer and trophy management focuses on "mature" bucks 4.5+ years of age. Our QDM co-op has rules in place to mostly protect deer until 2.5 years old. at 2.5 years old you'll have little idea what size antlers a buck is capable of. chances are at most their antlers could be at 50%. not until they reach 4.5 or 5.5 years old will you have an idea, with antler growth possibly reaching 75-90% at 4.5 and 90-100% at 5.5 years old. they might be similar but are definitely not the same.

I'd actually be for that but you'd almost have to make it doe only if hunting with muzzleloader. So many would pass doe and use it for a better opportunity at a buck. That would defeat the purpose of having the early season to begin with. Early doe harvest is good though. You're not waiting And shooting a doe that's probably bred which would then be a waste of the bucks energy that could carry it through the winter and into antler growing season better.

Sounds like you took a nice buck in a state with ARs. Are deer are a little bigger up here but the spread of 15" is about the same as theirs compared to the deers ears.

the second chapter to all this is habitat like some of us have said... improving the productivity of the deer herd to keep up with the harvest pressure year after year does us no good if the land doesn't have the holding capacity to support more deer. that's why DEC and the state comes into play for areas like the catskills and Adirondacks where improvement of habitat can happen but it still needs to be preserved for what it is. For private land... DEC can bring in or contract people that know their stuff to teach seminars or hold classes that teach the private land owner how to improve his habitat to hold more deer or whatever else. DEC is the middle man that collects a fee for the class. they look like a hero, get more money, and NYS becomes more educated. that's for another thread though.

you both have things completely jacked up and/or maybe I didn't explain it well enough. restrictions I said where this... 15" outside spread and 3 points on BOTH sides. this protects 1.5 and some 2.5 year olds. so yea you could start shooting at a 2.5 yr old buck most likely. now take into account an old case of a buck that is 3.5 or older with a narrow rack and fewer points. he should be legal to shoot because he's not a young enough deer to be concerned about protecting. so you add a third portion to the restrictions that says if he doesn't meet the spread and minimum point requirements then it's still ok to take him if he meets a third requirement that is basically some indicator that he's most likely not a yearling and would be protected otherwise. spread and beam length is more indicative of age compared to number of points. so for an AR to work well you have to have spread in there. multiple years we've had about half the 1.5 yr olds on the property sporting 3 points on a side. so an AR that simple won't work well enough to protect the right deer nobody is saying you should start shooting once it's a giant 12 pointer. if you want to do that, FourSeasons can hook you up.

.

I'll have venison summer sausage and hot dogs here pretty soon and I'm curious how long they'd keep. for my ground venison I don't mix anything else in with it and usually trim it more than most I know. I try to use that ground meat up by the following season.

the restrictions in my posts would protect some 2.5 yr olds yes. honestly, "most" 2.5 yr olds won't be protected with them. some definitely will though. phade i think you know this and culver I'm not sure how deep into qdm you are. that's the word on the street and what I've seen. "most" was the wrong word so yes I screwed that up. heck say most and when you fall a little short your right on target. seems to be the real world outcomes with deer stuff for what I've seen. goals usually fall a little short but that's still ok. About the whole B&C score just simmer down. The point is you have to have a third piece to a restriction that trumps the other two. otherwise hunters will be bent over because a buck's bigger, older, and protected. I said Texas does 6 points to a side I think, maybe that's an option state wide. What do all of you think would be that good third piece? I'm just trying to productively add to the conversation instead of pissing all over someone's post. if DEC is cooking any ideas involving this stuff why would hunters not want to talk about it, whether you're for it or not. Beats sitting by and complaining about anything that's screwed up later.

I guess this link basically answers the question.

I've had venison that's vac packed and older than a year. seemed no different than stuff under a year old. with different people saying stuff about fat mixed in I wonder what the deal is with keeping frozen hot dogs or summer sausage. does it not matter because it's technically cooked? what do you all think with how long is lasts in the freezer?

no. I'm saying that we should protect all yearlings and most 2.5 year old bucks. they make up more than half of the buck population, a herd needs those numbers to have more productive doe dropping fawns earlier in the year. more productive your deer herd the more there is to harvest from a biological stand point from year to year. it's possible that an older buck that's say 3.5+ yrs old would be protected by spread and points restrictions, so you need a 3rd factor to allow it to be taken. judging age takes lots of knowledge and practice for a given area so it's not feasible for state wide implementation. need something joe smith can wrap his mind around and confirm. so I guess gross B&C antler score would work to say hey this deer is bigger and older despite it's not 15" outside spread or has 3 points on both sides. This is a very very rare case but could still happen.

seeings how you're offering a rectal deer exam i'll call you up when I shoot a deer from now on. PM me #. lol this apply for doe too?

age on the hoof doesn't work unless you're pretty educated and not the vast majority of hunters out in the woods. I'm with you there. it's not as hard to count points or look at spread as you might think. you wouldn't know until you're forced to try it either because how would you when you're not looking to begin with. spread or beam length is more important/conducive to protecting young buck than # of points. 15" works well because it's barely within a bucks ears when relaxed, so basically width of ears which is easier to observe than estimating an arbitrary number of inches for spread. also I've yet to see a 1.5 yr old buck with a spread of 15" or more. it's not impossible but rare. if a hunter can't count points because the buck is running or in cover so thick then maybe they shouldn't shoot based on ethics.

age is relatively subjective compared to inches of bone, points, and spread. so it's not feasible to go by age for state wide regulations. an educated hunter in a co-op within NY doing it within co-op guidelines is different and it could work then. points don't matter as much as spread but yea what you said works. heck what we do is 3 points on both sides (can include brow tines and a point must be 1" in length, same as DEC regs) and minimum 15" outside spread. DEC makes the gross inches 110" for bucks that slip through the cracks and adjust it down the road based on feedback and known cases. differing license fees based on where you live or hunt will be a tough sell that I can't agree with. however, the way it is now you can hunt anywhere in NYS pending permission works. if you bought a license for say 4C but suddenly had an opportunity to hunt somewhere else it'd suck... now you can't unless maybe you went back and paid the difference in cost? it's messy and wouldn't work too well I fear. the idea is to make it easier to harvest doe for everyone, in places that need it. instead of filling all tags with doe late season they should make it the other way around. say you've got a supersportsman with 3 deer tags (no DMP).... you can fill only one tag with a doe during late season and all your tags with doe during early season. this would not force some to wait for later season but instead allow them to fill tags early. still have to use bow or xbow during early season.

don't feel bad for me... that was my opinion based on my requirements for me harvesting it. I suppose I should've made that clear. do I think it's a great buck. hell yea, but it's still a 2.5 yr old in my mind. that said if anyone else happily took it... I'd celebrate along with them and not think any less.

a hand crank otherwise you're not getting a "good" (last a lifetime) grinder for under $200.

at the time they didn't have scentlok vertigo camo but that's another option as long as it's not fancy with weather resistance or wind blocking lining.

it's Cabelas lightweight coverup jacket and pants. it has no lining for wind and water resistance. I honestly couldn't find anything that breathes like that in snow camo at the time. I looked for a full zip cotton or plain fleece hoodie or sweatshirt and couldn't find that either. otherwise most snow camo out there will have some kind of lining for weatherproofing or wind blocking that'll prevent it from breathing as well. I went down your path and I came up with that or non-hunting clothing that's white and women's. lol

yup the perfect time to do it... early. i don't hunt with a xbow but i don't care. get them out there sooner to shoot doe if need be i'll hold my bow and wish him/her luck. not worried about it effecting my hunting. heck maybe it's a young kid with an experienced adult to supervise... perfect!

I don't know but I'm for it if it includes spread, points on both sides, and something that allows harvest of a buck 4.5+ years old that slips through the first two guidelines (min " B&C gross antler score). texas goes with 6 points each or one side to catch a mature buck protected by the other restrictions. whatever. it'd suck to shoot a 2.5 year old with 6 points on one side and I've been with an outfitter that it happened to.

I think change should happen.... this isn't 20 years ago. DEC cares less about antler size and more about deer numbers... tags purchased and filled. More tags bought and filled, along with more hunters involved to keep it alive. Out of state hunters seeing high success rates will buy tags too. In this context antler restrictions have nothing to do antler size and more to do population management. it's a feasible way to protect young bucks (the majority of buck population). we can shoot between a 1/4 and 1/3 of the adult doe each year and more doe will be there every year to shoot again pending no other natural disasters happen to wipe them out. to have more doe you need more bucks (1.5yr olds and 2.5 yr olds) to breed them right away. rut should be fast and hard deer have more time to recover, fawns born sooner, and more deer (fawns and adults both) live to see next season. I think it's weird the dates are different for northern and southern. I think they should be the same (start the same). In WMU where deer density is higher/bow only areas/urban areas there can be expanded seasons sure. Gun season here in 4C and others doesn't have to be as long as it is. most quit by thanksgiving anyway. It should be encouraged to shoot doe sooner if one is taken. give more opportunity for doe harvest sooner than later. the later you shoot a doe the higher the chances are she's breed and has next years fawn to add to the population. Adirondacks, catskills, grafton, etc. areas where mature big woods can't hold same number of deer should have different harvest rules and shouldn't be easier to kill deer. if deer numbers are low, guess what you can't keep harvest numbers up or it'll only make things worse. more importantly DEC should offer more incentive or allow for more habitat improvement in the area. without that those areas will never hold more deer. I've learned DEC staff that age deer and butchers can both butcher an age estimate of a deer. like WNYhunter was getting at. DEC can only help us at most. We the hunters are the true reasons for where a deer herds future is headed. Education is key and don't expect DEC to fix all our problems with the deer. also antler restrictions and our hunting behaviors are a horrible way to manage for trophies as it takes out the largest antlered deer for a given age class. if you're looking at this to produce giant whitetail antlers like on FourSeasons farm it's not the answer and never will be. Only way to get remotely close to a true giant in free ranging whitetail is to have more buck fawns being dropped to the ground for a chance it win the genetic lottery. only then and with age and food will he get that big.