Curmudgeon

I was out pulling woody invasives and stumbled on my 3rd turkey nest this afternoon. The middle nest is about 100 yards from each of the others. Today's nest only had 2 eggs in it. I also bumped a grouse off a large clutch. It's a pain because I do a quick scan and clear out when this happens so the birds can get back to sitting. I miss stuff that way.

The egg spray needs to dry for a full day. Yes, it needs to be reapplied. I have gotten more than a month out of it even with rain when applied properly. I have a couple of conifers in a sheep pasture that I want the sheep to avoid. It is easy to keep track of how long it lasts. It also works for rabbits and woodchucks. Weather does affect it but trees I sprayed the first week of January were protected all winter. I tried the soap. Once the deer get used to the smell they start munching again. It is like hanging shiny things. It's very temporary.

There is a reason Williams column was called "Incite". Sometimes he seems to be just trying to provoke but he often hits the target dead on. Check this stuff out. http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-conservationist/sportsmen-and-environmentalists-together-politically-an-unstoppable http://10000birds.com/why-did-the-national-audubon-society-end-their-contract-with-ted-williams.htm http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/business/media/ted-williams-audubon-columnist-is-reinstated.html?_r=0 http://troutunderground.com/tag/ted-williams/ http://archive.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite1011.html

I use the rotten egg stuff. I find it works. Liquid Fence brand Deer and Rabbit Repellant.

Thanks Mike. The need to keep deer numbers in check helps generate support for hunting by non-hunters - whether these people are concerned with birds or their shrubbery.

Thanks for an interesting range of opinions. None of this is simple. I hate simple answers to complex problems. They contribute to my curmudgeonliness.

Thanks. Now all I need are how many licenses were sold and the DMP harvest rate. That would be some data I could sink my teeth into.

Phade - One of the years in question was a record harvest at the time. DEC was making a serious effort to reduce the population. The goal - helped somewhat unexpectedly by lots of deep snow - was clearly met. They could not anticipate the amount of winter kill when they gave out the DMPs. The problem was that the reduction was not evenly spread across the state.There was a lot of pressure on DEC to increase deer numbers in Delaware County - which took a harder hit than Otsego (4F). I suspect the same occurred in other areas. My thinking is the lower gross numbers were part of the plan. Is there somewhere where you can find long term trend data?

I gave up honey bees after developing an allergy and some winter hive deaths years back. I miss the honey but my apples, pears and blueberries do very well with wild, native bees. Then again, there is adequate habitat for the wild girls. This isn't a monoculture. Wild bees can do a lot. They can't support industrial ag but I still harvest a half ton of apples and probably 500 # of blueberries a year for home use.

Back in '00 and '01 two winters with deep snow pack followed a couple of years of high DMPS in western R4. Deer numbers dropped noticeably. Speaking to some people you would have thought it was the end of the world as we knew it. A couple of years later numbers were right back to the highs of the late 90s in 4F. Deer are resilient.

Never took that drug. Couldn't understand why anyone would.

Some WMUs are too big. However, managing on a micro level - smaller then the home range of a deer is a fool's errand. I have 2 large properties within a mile that allow no hunting at all. How do you manage that? Even if you can manage your local herd, what metrics do you use? Do you judge the population on how many deer you see or kill? How much sign? The only meaningful metric for determining whether there are too many deer is the quality of native vegetation. Are invasives being favored because deer are suppressing natives? Are you seeing barberry, buckthorn, bush honeysuckle increasing? If you have oaks, are they regenerating? Do you know the scores of plant species on your property - or those that should be but are missing? Yes, do you own management but make sure you educate yourself first.

The single greatest risk factor with cars is the quality of the driver. I bet the same is true of motorcycles and ATVs.

Heck, Rin Tin Tin cleared 11' 9" and he was a dog. There's a good book on him by Susan Orlean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rin_Tin_Tin

0% interest is like a free lunch. Offer cash and see what it does to the price. We haven't completely removed Darwinism. This from the Oneonta Daily Star last week. An 11 year old on an ATV on a public road with his 9 year old brother behind him.

Like jjb, there are good numbers of turkeys in my area but jake numbers are down. I don't hunt them but my brother hunts my land. I also spoke to Virgil who has a place nearby. Both encountered uncooperative Toms. Neither saw jakes. My brother saw 3 long-beards out in a large field but couldn't call them in. Turkeys increased exponentially like an invasive species when they were reintroduced. It was natural for the population to then decline and level off as jjb has seen. This area has plenty of predators, including mesopredators, yet turkey numbers are good. The woods look like someone has been out there with a rake. I have one nesting under a Christmas tree next to a main tractor road. This is a pain because I am need to make long detours to keep from disturbing her. Blaming the "usual suspects" is too simple. Do you have farms nearby to provide a winter food source? How much snow pack did you have and how long did it last?

I must be ignorant because I'm surprised to hear people borrow money for ATVs. Wow!

Mike's comment makes me think of my neighbor who comes upstate to hunt and rides his ATV around his 80 acres constantly on opening weekend. I think riding the machine is more important than hunting. When I go to the Dacks to hunt, it seems every truck with hunters going there and back has a quad in it. They seem to have become a necessary part of some hunter's image. There aren't many places within the blue line where you can ride. However, a couple of years ago I found a ATV trail of over a mile long cut into the Pigeon Lake Wilderness. That said, I bought a UTV a couple of years back. It is more of a farm tool than hunting tool. However, the tipping point on the purchase was my octogenarian Dad's ability to get to his stand up the hill. They can be a great tool but are often just toys.

What is it called when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?

Some of the general public will associate this with hunters.

The key of AT's that resonates is that some people miss how important habitat is and think that killing predators solves a problem of too little game. That's why I put those ideas out there. With good habitat, natural predators are not a problem for native game populations. Predator numbers are self limiting. If you want unnatural numbers of game, or, if dumb game farm birds are put out for a period of time, then predators may seem a problem for you. This self limiting nature of predator populations is less true with coyotes because of their versatility. They can make a living on prey ranging in size from mice to deer. They are omnivorous. The idea that you can kill coyotes and help deer and other game populations is too simple. It results from not understanding that coyote numbers cannot be controlled - except in a controlled situation (enclosure), or with such an output of energy that it becomes silly and exhausting. There are things we can and cannot control. If you own property - and even if you have a long term lease - you have an opportunity to improve habitat. You may be able to do habitat improvement on public land in places. The closed canopy Forest Preserve of the Dacks is no longer deer habitat. It is moose habitat.

Go figure. http://news10.com/2015/04/29/bald-eagle-shot-in-new-libson-police-search-for-shooter/

Grow - Thanks for the mesopredator info. I really didn't expect many replies. I just wanted people to think about these things. The world is sometimes complicated. db - Agree. Things aren't that black and white. Sometimes what we do is a big uncontrolled experiment.

Can't seem go get to work. BBBBBB B and ) give the emoticon. Weird.

This is a brain exercise. Interpret “habitat quality” and “improvement” broadly: food, cover, impacts of invasive species, etc. Are there too few deer? If yes, what is the best way to increase populations? A) Improve habitat Hunt and trap coyotes C) Reduce the doe take - lobby for fewer DMPs Are there too many deer? If yes, what is the best way to decrease populations? A) Harvest does using hunters - increase DMP and DMAP tags Improve land access - Open closed lands to hunting, including State Parks C) Use professionals to kill does D) Protect coyotes Are there too few turkeys? If yes, what is the best way to increase populations? A) Improve habitat Hunt and trap coyotes C) Hunt and trap meso-predators: foxes, skunks, opposums, raccoons, fishers D) Protect coyotes to reduce meso-predator populations How would you rank the limiting factors for game populations: A) Habitat quality Predators C) Human disturbance of habitat – agriculture, development, etc. D) Severe winters