wolc123

Venison is very important to our family. This past season, for the first time ever, I was able to do a real "apples to apples" comparison of 1/2, 1-1/2, 2-1/2, and 4-1/2+ buck venison. The button was struck by a car at the end of our driveway and I finished it with a knife. The 1-1/2 was my x-bow kill, the 2-1/2 was a "gift" from a friend during archery season, and the 4-1/2 + was my rifle kill. All, except the button died on their feet from the shot, or within seconds from massive heart/lung damage. The button probably lingered 5 minutes before I was able to end his suffering. I personally consumed the tenderloins from each, 3-4 days after the kills, all cooked the same (rare the way I like them) in a frying pan on the stove in olive oil. The button was about 50 lbs dressed, the 1-1/2 160 lb, the 2-1/2 200 lb, and the 4-1/2 + 225 lbs. The 3 younger bucks were all killed in a southern, Ag region of the state and the stomachs were all filled with corn. The old buck was taken in the NW Adirondacks and its stomach was loaded with white-oak acorns, mostly un-chewed due to well-worn teeth I suppose. The results of the "taste test" of the tenderloins were: 1) The drawn-out "road-kill" fawn was best by a wide margin, pretty much about the most tender, best tasting tenderloins I ever had. 2) Very little if any noticeable difference between the 1-1/2 and the 2-1/2. Due to the larger size I would definitely pass a 1-1/2 if I knew I would get a crack at a 2-1/2. Most years lately, I get them "cracks", so antler restrictions wouldn't hurt me too bad. To me, as a full blooded "meat hunter", a 2-1/2 year old buck is as good as it gets when you combine quantity of meat and quality. 3) The tenderloins from the old buck were definitely a bit "chewier", but still tasted good. Quantity of meat was only marginally more than the 2-1/2. The loss in meat "quality" with the old buck certainly had nothing to do with method of death, hanging temp, or cooking method as all 3 mature bucks were similar. The diet is a bit of an unknown however, as there is no corn within many miles of where that old buck lived. With a 3-point min per side AR, we would be eating the same as we are today (the 1-1/2 was a 6), but I would still vote against the AR's if I could. I want my freedom to apply my own AR's depending on where we are in the seasons and with the freezer. I have gone many seasons with no bucks and full freezers due to liberal doe tags. This is the first I remember where we were full with no does. I do prefer butchering bucks, due to less fat to trim on average, and the bucks taste just as good within each age class.

So how does pretending that a crossbow is no more effective than a compound help us get the rest of archery season? Any other ideas? I paced off that shot at 59 yards. Check out the arrow placement in the photo. Bottom line here is the man upstairs is the one who determines whether or not you make the shot, I know I ain't that good. Feel free to post any of your photos of shot results at "ethical" ranges, or maybe send in a photo of your little yellow tag if that's all you got. I am sorry if I have ruffled a few feathers here but I am enjoying the entertainment. Bring it on.

For me to take a shot at a deer, I need to know on average, within about 90% certainty, that I can recover the deer with a clean kill. I have never had enough sightings to wait for the 100% shots. Last season, I only had 4 bucks within range from the beginning of crossbow season until the end of ML, and not a single doe or fawn. Fortunately, I was able to connect on both bucks that I shot at, or it would be one long, hungry off-season. That was in a total of 37 morning and afternoon hunts. My % number goes a little lower near the end of the respective seasons (archery, gun, ML), mostly because my whole family loves venison. I judged the 60 yard shot (which I guessed at 50), to be about 80% on the last day I could fill my archery tag. We ate our first roast tonight from that corn-fed 6-point buck, and it was excellent. Far tastier than them little yellow tags it sounds like many of you 100%'rs might still be clinging to. If venison were not so darn good, I could maybe hold out for the better than 99.5% shot, but in 37 years of hunting, I only had one. That was at a doe, standing, looking at me, just 13 yards away, as I aimed my scoped, 12 gauge slug gun at the center of her rib-cage. It was not to be however, as the gun froze up due to the extreme cold conditions, and did not fire when I pulled the trigger. Just goes to show that there is no such thing as a 100% shot. Every hunter should know his limitations with every weapon, on that we all agree.

Would our chance for full inclusion be better if a crossbow was not really more effective than a compound? The problem is, the truth can not be suppressed, and it don't take long after you pick one up, before you realize how much more effective they truly are. Range at least double, group size (from a rest) well under 1/2 at all ranges compared to those made with vertical bow shots. No need to draw with deer in close. No fatigue from long hold. Telescopic sights. All that stuff adds up in favor of the crossbow. The one I got is not front heavy, and balances as good as my .22 carbine rifle for off-hand shots. If the state truly wants to reduce the deer herd in some areas, then they should strongly consider letting us use this 10X or so more effective weapon throughout archery season as most other states have done. You can keep drinking that "kool-aid" that says the crossbow is no different in effectiveness than a compound if you would like. Only problem is, it just don't match the facts.

Maybe some folks cant shoot any better with a crossbow than a compound but I certainly am not one of them. Cutbait says they are about equal in effectiveness. I have taken plenty of deer with a compound over 30 some years and would not consider a shot over 30 yards with one. 60 yards with a crossbow was a little longer than I estimated, but it still got the job done. With a slight upgrade, I would not hesitate to take that shot again. My 60 yarder was across an open field, at a distracted buck (focused on two does), that was in no position to "jump the string". I might not get a chance like that again, but I am very confident in the accuracy of my crossbow at that range, just a little concerned about penetration. 30 more fps and 15 more pounds of draw weight should take care of that. I have enough experience with deer and archery equipment to know when "string jump" is an issue and when it's not. Most, if not all "string jump", that I have experienced with a compound, was a result of the deer picking up the motion of the draw in their peripheral vision and changing to a state of extreme alert. Guess what folks - you don't need to draw the crossbow with the deer in close. That, more than anything is what makes the crossbow so much more effective than the compound on "live" targets. They never know what hits them until it is too late, without that little visual warning like they always get when you draw your compound. If they are not alert, they can't instantly react to the sound of the bow's energy release. Most crossbow shots are taken from a rest using telescopic sights. Think about how that compares to taking shots with a compound from a standing position. Its not fair. What chance does the poor deer have? The less he has the better as far as I am concerned. I want him dead and in my freezer. If you want to give the deer a chance, stick with the compound, or maybe even a recurve or longbow. Personally, I would rate my crossbow as at least 6 times more effective on deer than my compound, and 4 times more effective on fixed targets. Your results may vary.

You had me worried there Cutbait as I always have been a real stickler for the rules. When I bought the Recruit in April 2014, It was advertised as "18" wide. I just checked it with a scale, and the overall width, to the outside of the cables, wrapped around the pulleys is 18-1/18". The NY law says that the minimum width, undrawn, measured to the "Tips of the limbs" is 17". When I measured to the limb tips, I got 17-1/64", or legal by a very narrow margin. I fired it 40 - 50 times since I got it including practice & unloading, 1 shot at a grouse (miss), and 1 at a deer (hit), and it is very likely that it did not meet the width law with a new string. Just a little stretch, and "good to go" however. I have only shot it 4 times since killing my buck so I will still consider that a legal kill, even if I did push the range a little at 60 yards. I did not see any rules on maximum range, although I will limit future shots to 50 yards with that crossbow due to insufficient penetration by my own personal standards (I like a pass thru, and only got 7-1/4", enough to get the mechanical broadhead thru the heart, but not thru the body). I will definitely check the tip to tip width of the Raptor before I upgrade this fall. I know I can achieve the accuracy I need for 60 yard shots and I was hoping that one would deliver the penetration with that extra speed and poundage.

I know of several trophies that have fallen to newbies with almost no hunting knowledge. Those bucks didn't get big by "following" the rules and doing predictable things that are reported in magazines and internet forums. Old bucks have usually patterned the "real woodsmen", but the newbies are an unpredictable lot. Its the same way with fish. When I take my wife bass fishing she cant even bait her own hook but nearly always hooks the largest fish. I always catch more however.

I bought an entry-level (Barnett Recruit - $250 from Amazon) last April and it exceeded my expectations in many areas. It arrived in the mail in about a week and was simple to assemble. It came with a quiver, rope cocking device, three arrows with 100 gr field tips, and a red-dot type sight, with three dots that could be changed red or green at various light intensities. My only complaint with the thing is that the intensity level / on-off knob on the sight is tough to turn. It is very easy, and responsive to adjust however, unlike some of my expensive rifle scopes. I switched to 125 gr field tips, and about 3/4 turn vertical adjustment up was required, that's it. It shot flat from 10 to 30 yards with all groups under a quarter's size, all using the top dot. At 40 yards, it was about 3" low with the top dot and group size was about 2". These shots were all from a rest. I was very impressed with how flat this thing shot compared to my compound, especially given that it was just a 135 lb draw, 300 fps model. On the range, I tried the first shots at 30 and 40 yards with the middle dot, but they always went high (about 6" at 30 and 3" at 40). While hunting last season, I only had one buck (small body 4 pt), within range, no does. Unfortunately I was asleep in my blind and when I awoke to the sound of his footsteps 15 yards away, he was looking straight at me and the x-bow was on the ground. I lifted it up in "slow motion", but when it got above my rest he took off and I never got a shot. That turned out to be bad news for his bigger brother (6 pt) a couple days later on the last day I could hunt during archery season. The 6 point never got within range, but he stood broadside at 50 yards (my estimate) tempting me to take the shot. I figured I had a 75% or better chance (that's my number on the last day), so I decided to take the shot. I had some idea what would happen with the middle dot from my work on the range, so I held for a high lung shot and squeezed the trigger. I heard the tel-tale thump as the arrow found its mark, about 10" below my point of aim, and straight thru the heart. Penetration was a somewhat dismal 7-1/4", but the buck only made it 40 yards due to the location of the hit. I used a three blade mechanical broadhead. It looked like someone emptied a can of red spray-paint on the buck's armpit as he ran off and crashed down. When I paced the range to where the the buck had stood, it was 60 yards, or a little longer than I had guessed, hence the low strike. left-right was right on the mark. It looks to me like that middle dot on the Recruit is for 50 yards as I thought, and the bottom dot must be for 60. I will find out for sure this year before hunting. I was not thrilled with the penetration at 60 yards however, and I will likely fork over another hundred or so for a Barnett Raptor (next model up 150 lb, 330 fps). That should be a legit 60 yard x-bow. The Recruit is very light (6 lb), narrow (18" undrawn), and well balanced. It actually handles and points as easy offhand as my Ruger 10/22 carbine. The Raptor is just a hair heavier and same width. Build quality seems to be very good. It is unreal how much more effective these things are than a compound. All that talk about them being similar in effectiveness is BS (have you ever compared the accuracy shooting a rifle from a rest to offhand?). In my own hands, I would rate the x-bow as at least 6 times more effective on deer and 4 times as effective on targets as a compound. I actually feel sorry for the deer. My favorite thing about them is how much time they save me by almost eliminating the need to practice compared to a compound. I am not retired, and have a family, and farm to take care of so my time is very valuable. I probably wont pick up a compound again after my experience with the crossbows. Good luck with your purchase. The only thing we need now is full inclusion for all of archery season. I know I could fill all my doe tags if we had that.

I have a slight preference for bucks because they are easier to butcher due to less fat to trim, and I like saving the buck horns to remind me of the successful hunts. I have no problem shooting does if the local deer population is above optimum, which it has been in most areas I have hunted in Western NY over the last 20 years. Meat is the main reason I hunt, so I would continue to hunt as long as it was legal. Most of the venison our family has consumed over the last 15 years, since they loosened up a bit on the DMP permits, has been does. I filled both my buck tags last season, plus we received (2) "gift" bucks, so all the deer we will be eating until next season will bucks for the first time I can remember. We might be sick of "buck-meat" by next season so the doe-only pipe dream might be a good thing.

Maybe that explains why the buck was struck thru the heart at 60 yards with a 300 fps, 135 lb draw x-bow. He heard the release of the arrow and positioned himself so that he could check out with as little pain and suffering as possible. One things certain however, that heart was delicious. My wife pickled it and another for an appetizer at our new-years party this year. I think my first guess was more on-target. The venison goes where the man upstairs wants it to go. Range, practice, poundage, speed, etc., are of secondary importance. Good luck next season for all you folks whether you got any last year or not.

If you can answer a few questions for me on that shot for me I would appreciate it: 1) What is the speed and draw weight of you x-bow?, 2) What was the range? 3) How much arrow penetration did you get? It looks on the video, like the shaft broke, so I assume what was inside was about equal to the penetration. 4.) How far did the doe run after hit? 5.) How heavy (field dressed) was the doe? I hit the same spot on a 1-1/2 year 6-point last season. My numbers were: #1: 300 fps / 135 lb, #2: 60 yards (measured). #3: 7-1/4" (measured length of broken shaft & 3 blade mechanical o-ring style 125 gr. broad-head inside chest cavity). #4: 40 yards (estimate) #5: 163 lb (weighed). On my shot, using what I am certain was a slower, and lower energy bow, and likely a farther shot, I was not overly satisfied with the 7-1/4" arrow penetration, even though it took it all the way thru the heart. I am looking to upgrade a bit this off-season and would like some numbers to use for comparison with a faster rig. If you don't have the exact numbers, no problem, a guess is good enough for me. Thanks.

I find making firewood an enjoyable hobby so I cut my own firewood. Our 1400 sq ft, L-shaped ranch is heated by two gas furnaces that rarely operate, and one small woodstove (Avalon "mission") that does most of the work. The house is well insulated and setup so the centrally located stove on the main floor, can move heat around the whole house, keeping the bedrooms cool and the main living space warm. 8-10 face cords gets us thru a typical winter. The last 4 years, due to the "emerald borer" threat, Ash is all I have burnt. That burns good, and requires little or no seasoning but does live up to it's name and produce lots of ash. That means frequent cleaning of the stove is required. I prefer to burn oak, cherry, hickory and maple. I have about a 5 acre mature hardwood woodlot at the back of our 40 acre farm which is about 25% ash, 50% oak, and 25$ maple.

Neither of these will fit your "violent" criteria but the wife and I stayed home the other night (after ditching the kids at my sister's) and watched "Djndango" on Netflicks. It was very good. Apparently it won a couple Oscars and my wife is a big Oscar fan. Oscar night to her is like opening day of deer season to me. I wanted to go see "American Sniper" at the theater but it wasn't there yet. That was a very good book anyhow, and I can't wait to see the movie. I considered "Unbroken" for a little bit and may still hit that one, but probably not until it comes out on video.

I have heard that 200 pounds or smaller are good-eating, but the larger ones are not worth dragging out of the woods because the flavor and texture of the meat is so poor. I have also heard that there is lots of waste on bear carcasses, and they produce much less usable meat per pound of body weight than a whitetail. Considering all that, and if you want a rug or mount, I would think that a 180 - 200 pounder is just about perfect as far as a bear goes. I am looking forward to going after one next season.

Our favorite "easy" dinner is to throw a frozen roast on top of a few potatoes, onions carrots and a can of cream of mushroom soup, into the crockpot, in the morning before work. Set it on low, and a good hearty dinner for 4, plus lunch for me the next day, is there waiting when I get home. The pickled hearts (from 1-1/2 and 1/2 year old bucks) were delicious. My mother in law scarfed up the one from an old buck I shot up at their cabin in the Adirondacks this year. I don't know yet how that one tasted nor how she cooked it. It seems that the livers get tougher as they age and I didn't even save that one. I am sure that the coyotes and/or a bear up there were thankful. The liver from the 1/2 year old was fried up immediately. along with the tenderloins, and both were world-class in both flavor and texture. I fried and ate about 1/3 of the liver from the 1-1/2 year buck, while it was fresh, and it wasn't bad but no where near as good as that from the fawn. Those folks who get their meat from the supermarket have no idea what they are missing.

I would rather see pictures like that on the cover of hunting magazines than the big racks they always show. It is good to see that there are still some folks out there who have their priorities right. Thanks for posting. It looks like the outer part gets pretty well done (the way my wife and older daughter like it), while the center looks good and rare, the way I like it. My younger daughter likes it medium, so she should be able to find plenty of that also. Venison is about the only food that I could, and sometimes do, eat every day of the week. "Pickled heart" will be an appetizer for tomorrow's new years party.

I have made (3) so far using old truck caps as the roof structure. The platform (of the 1st floor) is up about 3 to 6 feet. The decks are sized for the caps (two are for mini-trucks, one short bed, one long, one for full-size, long bed), supported by pressure treated 4x4 or 6x6 at each corner, each on concrete blocks. I build a 3 ft high wall across the front and both sides, onto which the truck cap is placed. My favorite type of truck cap to use are the construction-style ones with the side doors that fold out. Two of mine are this style. One has a second deck built up on the ladder rack, for fair-weather hunting. The upper deck also has a 3 ft high camo wall. During the off-season this year I am going to add a second deck to the other construction-style cap. I use a hard plastic swivel chair on the upper, open deck, and soft padded swivel chairs on the enclosed lower decks. I face the solid end of the cap towards the prevailing wind direction. It seems like there is always old truck-caps available for little or no money, and they require no maintenance. That fiberglass or aluminum seems to last forever. The only money I have into mine is for a few cans of camo spray-paint. Of the three, one is built on an old snowmobile trailer, so is easy to move around. Another is built about 5 ft high, from a full-size, 8 ft aluminum cap and, and moves around easily with a couple fork-extensions on my loader tractor. The third one (double decker) is attached to a 24" dia oak tree on the front. This year the weather was never bad enough for me to use them much, but over the last 10 years, I have shot more deer out of them than tree-stands, due to lots of bad weather and the comfort they provide under such conditions. The 8 ft cap blinds are large enough for 2 (mini truck) or 3 (full size truck) hunters. My daughters like to sit in these blinds and will soon be old enough to hunt. I am certain they will be a lot more likely to get into it if they are comfortable. The older one went out with me a bit this year and she wanted a BB gun for Christmas, so maybe there is some hope there. One things for sure, the older they get, the more they eat and it is tough sometimes (thankfully not this season) for me to get enough venison myself to last until the next year. It sure would be nice if they gave me a little help there.

One thing you have working for you now is a free fall in oil prices thanks to the threat from CNG and fracking. Off-road diesel might be under $2.00/gal by next spring.

What kind of trajectory could be expected from a 240 gr bullet? The 150 gr bullets I used were Federal Classic Hi-Shok Soft Points. It don't look like they make them anymore however based on what I see on-line. I still have 3 or 4 boxes and will probably go with the new Power-Shok soft points in 150 gr when I run out. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" they say, and I hope these replacements are an improvement.

I like to hunt them from a tree stand myself (not a real high one however) with the .22 rimfire rifle. That makes it easier to get a down angle on most shots, the ground becoming a good backstop. Knowing your target and what lies beyond is one of the cardinal rules of firearms safety with a rifle especially. For ground hunting, I use a little .410 shotgun with #6's. That is what I like best when they are working the treetops for nuts in the fall.

There is nothing he could plant on fresh cleared ground, that I know of, that will be more attractive to deer next fall, than the fresh browse that sprouts up when all that sunlight starts hitting the old forest floor. Ripping things up with dozers and such might just send the deer into the next county. Clearing the trees is definitely a step in the right direction, but I am not so sure about ripping out the stumps. Some folks have to learn stuff the hard way I guess.

You could probably just cut the stumps off low, and let them, rot out. Ash is all I have been burning the last 4 years to try and stay ahead of the borers. Personally, I will not be sad to see them all go as I prefer oak, cherry, hickory, maple, and walnut for firewood anyhow (less ashes to clean out - I see where the ash tree got it's name). I think I would just clear, like you did, and maybe add some lime after getting the soil tests back next spring. All the "natural" browse that pops up in the new sunlight should be very attractive to the deer next fall, so why not take advantage of that "free attraction" for a year or two as your stumps are rotting. In 3 years you should have some thick, nasty cover in there, again, very attractive to deer when they start getting pressured, so I would leave a little of that, but roundup the rest to clear the way for a late summer planting of rye grain. That grows in almost any soil conditions and is quite attractive to deer from fall thru spring. You could probably just broadcast the inexpensive seed heavy into the dead, untilled thatch prior to a rain and have it sprout pretty good in the untilled, old forest soil. Maybe repeat that one more year, until your stumps are rotted well enough to plow right thru them, you have your soil ph where you want it, and can plant anything you want. White clover and brassicas come to mind as two plots that provide a lot of tonnage per acre and can stand heavy pressure from deer while suffering minimally from other species (coons, turkeys, bears, squirrels etc.).

I never was a big golfer (I prefer the sports of hunting and fishing which are cheaper, funner, and often provide free meals when finished). I did play the company tournament this past summer, just to see what the fuss was all about, and because they offered lots of nice prizes and a good dinner at reasonable cost. A friend gave me one of them cheap little golf range-finders prior to the tournament. My plan next Memorial day weekend is to take a couple hikes with our girls (they will be 11 and 12 then), up at grandpa's cabin in the NW Adirondacks where I shot that buck. For the first hike, on the far shore of the creek, we will try and recover a glass gallon jug of water that Grandpa abandoned over there (he brought it and a roll of paper towels so I could clean myself up after the "bloody mess" he was anticipating, when I called him on the cell phone to bring his ATV as close as he could). He is very particular about keeping his cabin clean (note the newspapers under the carcass in the first photo). He could only get the ATV within a half mile or so of the site, and he carried my gun and gear out that far as I dragged the deer. Snaking it out of the thick brush in the creek-bottom was tough, but it pulled easily on the snow up in the timber. It was all he and I could do to lift it up onto the rear rack of his wheeler, when we reached it. I don't know the exact weight, but I know I am 200 lbs, and I could only lift the front of the deer, before my own feet came off the ground, hanging from the pulley shown in the photo. Grandpa's wheeler came in handy again there. If we cant find the jug (I hate to litter), we are at least going to set a stick under that pine tree, with marks painted at the height of a golf flag (I assume they are standard). Then our second hike will be up the ridge to find that "rest-tree", where we should be able to determine the range to the stick. Maybe I can hint to the girls and their mother for one of them fancy laser rangefinders next Christmas. Any recommendations on a good one?

My scope is an older Redfield 3 x 9, low-profile, widefield with a duplex reticle. I was cranked up to 9 power on that shot. I saw the buck approaching along a creek-bed from great distance, more than a mile for sure. I attempted to position myself for a shot when his path would put him at the closest distance, and I guessed that to be about 300 yards. I was positioned high above on a mountain ridge. I would call it more "lucky" than good as far as the shooting goes. When I checked zero on the rifle prior to hunting this fall, it hit centered above the bull, 1-1/2". That was the only practice shot I took with that gun (Ruger M77). The morning I killed the buck pictured on my previous post, on the Saturday after thanksgiving, it started out in the upper 20's at daybreak, but warmed rapidly, reaching about 35 degrees by 9:30, when I took my first shot. By the time I saw that buck, the noise of crashing ice, caused by the rising sun, sounded like thunder from down in the valley below. For my first shot, I was seated, and held firm, centered behind his shoulder. When he stopped briefly, I squeezed off the shot. He never even looked up, just continued ahead at his previous pace. That "boom" from above must have been covered pretty good by all the crashing ice. I then got up from my comfortable chair, and followed along the ridge. When he reached another opening, I took a second, hurried shot off-hand. Again he continued on, but this time he must have noticed the "boom" because he stopped and looked up in my direction. Just as he stopped, I came to a solid tree, up on the ridge, which I rested the rifle on, while standing. This time I held about an inch below the top of his back, behind the shoulder. My thought at the time was that the range was farther than my initial estimate, so I held high. After that final shot, he "disappeared". Just like baseball however, three strikes and he was out, as I found him after a long, round-about hike, right under the big pine tree he stood near at that last shot. I was lucky that good rest came along when it did, lucky that my rifle fed the second and third rounds smoothly, lucky that crashing ice covered the shots, and lucky to find that buck after the miles of heavy timber, and thick brush-covered creek-bottom I walked thru to get to him. The ridge was too steep to descend without climbing gear, and the creek too deep to cross, forcing me to take "the long way around". In all the excitement there, I wasn't even sure how many times I had shot, until I counted out my remaining bullets when I got back to the cabin. I took 8 in, and brought 5 out. Two of them bullets are stuck in the ground up there now I suppose, while one lays mushroomed, on a shelf out in our garage. That wasn't my first "lucky" shot on this lucky season. I shot at one other, much smaller buck near the end of archery season, back home in the Southern zone, with my crossbow. Again, I underestimated the range somewhat at 50 yards (turned out to be 60). Check out where that arrow struck. I aimed upper lung on that shot. One thing I noticed this year, is that the more I pray to Jesus Christ, and try and do right by him, the luckier I get.

I used what YFK uses on this old boy. Next spring I will hike up and get an exact range, but it looks to be between 300 and 400 yards based on "google maps". The buck was quartering away. The 150 gr Federal bullet struck centered on second last rib and traveled diagonally thru chest, lodging inside lower shoulder on opposite side. Both lungs were destroyed. The bullet mushroomed good and remained intact. The, old 8-point buck field dressed over 200 lbs and fell dead about where he stood when hit. I did not see him fall, but found him lying under the tree he stood near when I fired. When I found him, laying on about 6" of fresh snow, there was not a mark, or a drop of blood on him or the snow. It reminded me of lots of Woodchucks I have shot with my 22/250 using those "ballistic" plastic tipped bullets. No marks on the outside but big mess on the inside. After skinning, the entry hole thru the hide looked just a little over .30" dia. On a Western trip a few years ago, I bumped it up to Hornady "light magnums" in 165 gr, which were new at the time. Elk was our primary target, but I never saw a bull on the self-guided hunt. The performance on a mule deer buck was very impressive however, as the bullet literally knocked him off his feet from a range of approximately 100 yards. I would say those are a bit overkill for deer of either variety.