Jmny

Well, I finally was able to take the time and develop the patience to pursue factual information to show how distorted the views of the legislators and some on this site members are about the use of crossbows. I use both a crossbow and muzzleloader. The crossbow is a Barnett 410. I believe this to be the second fastest bow on the market.( for those concerned the fastest the Scoryd -175 # ( Orion & Vtec) 440 fps and 173 ke. With my crossbow I shoot an arrow that weighs 425 grains, 22" lenth, 2" vanes. The following are the statistical information on the performance of my crossbow- ( distance, feet per second-speed, kinetic energy, and ARROW DROP). 0 yards- 410fps,158ke, 0 10 yards- 406fps,155ke, -1" 20 yards- 402fps,152ke, -4" 30 yards- 398fps,149ke, -10" 40 yards- 374fps,146ke, -17" 50 yards- 366fps,143ke, -28" Now let's compare the second fastest crossbow with my muzzleloader Thompson/ Center omega 50 caliber. My ammunition used is a 45 caliber hornady sst bullet in a sabot with 120 grains of buckhorn 209 powder. This has the following performance statisics: Bullet speed of 2200fps 2" high at 100 hundred yards 4 " low at 200 yards. And still has,a kinetic energy of 1,285 foot pounds. Now let's compare the cross bow to the muzzleloader. Speed: 2,000 feet per second muzzleloader to 410 fps cross bow. Drop: 4 inches @ 200 yards,muzzleloader to 28" @ 50 yards for the crossbow. Energy @ 200 yards still has 1,285ke (foot pounds), 2nd fastest bow only has 143 KE at 50 And they are similar how? Maybe it's their comparable weight? SOURCE: Gunnersden.com Bestcrossbowsource.com Both these websites are a great source for both the gun and archery enthusiasts

Ok, said I wouldn't comment anymore but JJB has offered another scenario into the mix. In the situation where More than one person from the same or for that matter, differing parties both shoot and hit the same deer, sportsmanship usually is the way to proceed. This would be to evaluate if possible who placed the kill shot in the animal. But this isn't always easy. Some times it falls to who put the final shot into the deer. However getting back to the two hunters from the same party. As long as one of the two tag the deer there is no law being broken.. Both had the license and unfilled harvest(carcass) tag available. They technically could have flipped a coin to see who's harvest tag to use. I know this evaluation will cause a stir among those,with the belief only those that kill the deer can apply there harvest tag, but tell me with no degree of uncertainty did hunter 1 or Hunter 2 kill the deer? Do you honestly thing a DEC officer would have a problem with what ever the two hunters decide? Let's see both hunters paid for the right to hunt deer. Both shot at the deer in question. Both hunters had in their possession weapons( hell of a time for aggressive disagreement). They decide between themselves whose harvest tag to use. One hunter is done for the year unless he has another tag The other gets to continue hunting for the duration of the season,

By the way the best of both worlds would be the oppurtunity to have hunted all 38 days of the Archery season with either the crossbow, compound, (recurve, long bow.) But that's how I interpret the best of both worlds when referring to bow hunting with either crossbow or compound. I really have trouble following your train of thought with best of both worlds when he didn't have the choice for the first 37 days.

Only the first 38 days. Or 429 field hours in his blind. The fact that when he was finally allowed in the woods legally. He was successful the first day. There many individuals who have been in the woods for numerous days these past 39 days who have yet to use their carcass tag. Does that make him a better hunter than those have been in the woods numerous times since October 1, not at all. Does the fact that his use of a crossbow make him an inferior hunter to those that chose a compound to hunt deer? NOT IN THE LEAST.

Just wanted to congratulate Fletch on being the first to post a successful crossbow kill. After being denied the first 38 days of the bow season.

I normally find these exchanges of hunting philosophies and methods entertaining. The first benefit one can derive is knowledge. Of course in a search for knowledge, one has to realize that information with a reference source, makes the information more than personal option. Unfortunately, many individuals present their personal opinions as factual. Make no mistake some people fail to verify information before believing it as truth. But this thread has brought up two other negative aspects. The inability to have a discussion( differing opinions) without name calling or the exchange of insults. The other is religion. I don't know how many different religions there are in the world, But I respect everyone's right to have a different religious belief. After all, ninety percent of us are a product of our environment. By this I mean your religious following was dependent on what your parents followed as their religion. While I respect the differing religions I don't believe I should be subjected to someone trying to influence the train of thought of the group. Sometimes we learn something that is factually true, other times we learn what sways the opinions of others. Be nice to get back to hunting subjects.

I agree completely with jjb. The only reason the crossbow hunters,are getting a free pass( don't have to complete the archery course) is the fault of those that made the law. Here is a scenario that has no factual backing, just a product of my vivid imagination. The powers to be while contemplating the use of crossbows for deer hunting(which was becoming extremely obvious) with so many other states adopting the use of crossbows. Sat around figuring the most profitable way to including the crossbow in eligible weapons of use for deer hunting? 1)Any gun hunter that had the desire to use a muzzleloader had already purchased a muzzleloader permit. 2) The majority of new crossbow hunters will be bow hunters that have already purchased an annual archery permit. 3) So, if we classify the crossbow as a muzzleloader, the state will profit from those bow hunters that would need to purchase the muzzleloader stamp in additional to the archery stamp. Laugh, I don't know for sure, but how many other states that allow the use of crossbows require a muzzleloader permit. In my research I found that Pennsylvania considers it a bow, eligible for the entire archery season. (By the way, it only about $130-140 for non resident deer hunting license with archery stamp.) Will be looking into this next year. Hunted Ohio the last two years. As stated my scenario was a figment of my imagination. Only because I couldn't fathom what train of thought, would lead a person of sound mind and at least average intelligence to classify a crossbow as a muzzleloader gun. Believe one or two crossbows can shoot over 400 fps. Three hundred to three seventy five feet per second are more normal. As stated in an earlier posting I listed 5 compound bows that have an advertised speed of 350-366 fps. If you want to complain about something, use the kinetic energy advantage. More kinetic energy more pass thru shots. . And if you happen to hit a bone, better penetration. This should equate to less unrecovered wounded deer. This is the real advantage of a crossbow. That coupled with the fact some of us older and others with physical limitations don't have to worry about drawing the compound at time of shot. It is not my attempt to reason my use of the crossbow, to do so would be a disservice to someone that just makes the free choice to use a crossbow.

Congratulations that is definitely a buck to take pride In placing up on the wall.

Well, let's see did I get it? Apparently more than you perceived my sarcasm in my reply to your insulting question. And funny how your initial posting that questioned the readers ability to understand is so similar two the comments made by the hunters in both scenarios. Funny how someone's lack of confidence causes them to name call as a means of attaining that self confidence/ manhood. While I'm at it, let's address this revised history of the use of a bow to justify ones point of view. Crossbow invented in 5th century Longbow - invented by Celts in Wales 1180C.E.used by English military in the 1300's. Original long bow was 6 to 7 feet long and 5/8 th inch wide. Majority made of yew, but ash,hazel and elm wood were also used. With a draw weight of 200 pounds. Shot over a half mile. The long bow was a market improvement over the crossbow. Archers could shoot 15-20 arrows per minute to the 2-3 crossbow arrows "SEE BATTLE OF CRECY". Recurve bow- credited to the Mon Compound bows First introduced by Holless Wilbur Allen of Missouri in 1966. A patent was,established in 1969. Hugh mechanical advantages over the recurve. Leveraging system using cables and pulleys to bend the limbs.enabling the use of stiffer limbs. The cam/ pulleys also allowed for what is termed "let off". It use to be 50% when I hunted with my compound. But I understand now that 65% and above has become more the standard. And the use of releases makes it a more consistent than finger shooting, " Archers paradox", add peepsights and stabilizers and we see how far the compound bow has advanced from the traditional bow. Cross bow 135-200 draw,weights 100% let off Manual trigger pull. Use of sights or scope Now for all of you died in the wool hunters,that equate a,compound with your ability as a hunter because of the advantage of speed ( real or imagined) look up the let off and speed of the following bows: BEAR MOTIVE BOWTECH INSANTITY APA MAMBA 6 MATTHEWS MR-5 PSE OMEN. 350 fps to 366 fps With up to 80% let off. I don't have the time to research the speed,drop and kids metric energy of arrows shot from long bow,recurve,compound and crossbows. Oh, I guess I should include a the shotgun , muzzloader and rifles should be included seeing New York state requires you to have a muzzleloader license. Which further fuels the minds of those hunters to lazy to look up this information before making public statement how shooting a,cross bow is comparable to a muzzleloader. But seeing the powers to be( a group one would assume possessed a certain degree of intelligence) have categorized the crossbows as muzzleloader you can't blame the hunters for following suit. So much for independent thinking.

DMP

Well, if you have something to say finish your train of thought. I don't know whom you are trying to insult with the " i"m sure some of you won't understand " comment. If you actually believe a portion of the readers won't comprehend your train of thought, explain it in detail. Is your reference, that either or both hunters had negative comments about the other hunter in the area even though they were unaware of each other's presence while actually in the woods hunting? Or, people like to complain even if it is an exaggeration of the reality of the situation. It also exhibits the need of a hunter to think they are more skilled than their counterparts. I feel very inadequate not knowing if I really got the drift of your posting.

Thanks for your responses that allowed me to find a starting place to acquire knowledge of the area. Apparently this is an area that was frequently flooded. In the early 1900's a drainage ditch was established to prevent the frequent flooding. The farmers in the area planted cooking onion in this 26,000 acre area. In its prime the area was producing 30,000 pounds of onions per acre. As the different taste of onions became popular the farmers diversified their plantings to include radish,potatoes,lettuce,tomatoes,carrots and sod. It is,apparent that this diversity of produce sustains a healthy deer herd. You have to travel 250+ miles to find a dump area the has comparable harvest results.

Thanks for the black dirt reference. This 26,000 acre former swamp land which would frequently flood prior to early 1900's . When a drainage ditch was,esrtablished to keep the area from flooding. The farmers use to produce 30,000 pounds of onions per acre. Due to changes in popular taste of the onions the area farmers began to diversify with planting lettuce,radish,potatoes,tomatoes,carrots and sod. While this land is very fertile it isn't conductive to having large structures built on it. So it will remain farmland for a long period of time. And this 26,000 acres of farmland apparently sustains a large population of deer. In fact you have to travel 250+ miles to find another dump that has,a comparable harvest rate in NY.

Freytown, Thank you for your posting wildlife biologist J.T. Fleegled.it is a refreshing experience to have someone give factual information about deer behavior backed by factual studies instead of being subjected to everyone's emotional beliefs that are unfounded or unsubstantiated by any credible organization. As to the follow up.remark concerning does coming back into heat until bred ? I've read about the secondary breeding cycle for does that failed to breed successfully during the initial cycle, But a third and fourth cycle seems implausible. Based on my understand of the testosterone and hormonal levels of the buck and doe. Along with the gestation period of a deer being 200 days, the survival rate for a deer born in mid July to August throughout the first winter in the northern part of the country try seems low or improbable. Pleasure cite your references if I'm interpreting you post properly.

I have been studying the past deer take surveys from the DEC for the years 2007-2014. And one DMP area keeps jumping out, drawing my attention. And that is DMP- 3M. This area is comparable with the highest deer kills per square mile in the state. However it greatly exceeds the surrounding DMP's in that area of the state. What makes it so different? Would appreciate any suggestions on why this dmp has the highest deer harvest in that section of the state, in fact ranks with the other top areas of the state?

Well, time will tell, apparently you missed the part were you somehow establish that you shot the deer. Yes it differs in circumstances both hunters were on state land but If you were on state land and the deer went onto private property and the landowner filled out and placed a legal carcass( harvest) tag. I believe it would legally be the landowners. Whether or not you were denied permission to recover or you trespassed. My belief is carcass ( harvest) tag is the simplest way to establish legal possesion. Now, that is just my belief based on what I believe is common sense. There is no emotional response contained in my belief. As far as stealing your deer on their private property, do you equate refusing to allow you access as them stealing. If the landowner doesn't have access to a valid carcass( harvest) tag, he can't legally possess the deer. But now assuming he doesn't have access to a carcass( harvest) permit how would you call the DEC to report a thief of your deer? What proof would you base your claim??? Seeing you can't witness them taking the deer( You were denied access) Will you admit to trespassing to say you saw them take the deer illegally. Basically you have an unfounded assumption. Believe their is a saying about assuming. And the DEC won't want to waste their man power on assumptions. Well, I have responded to this thread enough, it's not my goal to hijack or intimidate others to accept my point of view. Just to explain my thought of reasoning. I will await the answer from those charged with enforcing the law. PS: Would appreciate the name of the conservation officer just to verify. I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem verifying your post. As he actually gets paid to enforce that very law. Let me thank you, in advance for helping to resolve this manner.

There in is the ethics/ sportsmanship of the deer hunter. Place yourself in the position of the DEC officer/ or any law enforcement officer. You receive a call from hunter A stating that he shot a deer and hunter B tagged it with his carcass( harvest) tag. Let's assume hunter B lies and says he shot it. How do you as a dec/ law enforcement officer determine who is telling the truth? Be realistic, The DEC/ law enforcement officer isn't going to attempt to research the path th deer took or the areas that both you a hunter B were supposedly standing when shots were fired. Maybe conduct an autopsy to see which type of broadhead or bullet was the kill shot, and hopefully both hunter A&B were using different ones So, you see the reason that I believe the carcass ( harvest) tag is the determining factor. This mandates that the prospective hunter makes a good kill shot on the deer. If you did, the need to wait more than 15-30 minutes should be unnecessary to track.. It's bad enough some of these cowboys that take running shots at deer with guns, but you know some do the same with their arrows. Bottom line. If it was me,as the officer, possession would be determined by the carcass(harvest) tag. I hesitate to use these words but it " makes common sense" Take goodness, for the 99.9 % of ethical hunters In the woods.

Interesting question and I appreciate the DEC assistance in getting a legal response. But I'd like to attempt a response based on my beliefs and knowledge of the law( which probably is very limited), see how far off my train of thought actually is. I would say that if the owner or a friend of the owner has a valid carcass tag they may harvest the animal. The harvest (carcass) tag validates the person being in possession of the animal legally. The back tag part of the license would allow a person to hunt (shoot) an animal. Normally the person that kills the animal harvests ( remove from the woods) the animal. But in this example I believe the landowner or his friend with a legal carcass (harvest) tag would meet the legal requirements to possess the animal. Might have to eat my words, But it won't be the first time.

You buy a license that gives you the ability to shoot a deer during season(s). Part of the license ( the harvest tag) also gives you the right to possess ( harvest) a dead deer. In 99.9 % of the cases it is the same person ID# is on both tags. Two scenarios: 1) you shoot a deer that goes onto private land, upon requesting permission, it is denied. What's happens? More than likely nature will take its course. Other wild animals, birds, insect will live off of it. You might consider it a waste but Mother Nature doesn't . Or the land owner or friend of his can legally take possession with a proper filled out harvest tag. Or the landowner might illegally take the deer without a harvest tag. How do you know which takes place? You don't! So calling the DEC is basically a waste of their time. The only thing that they could address is the taking of the deer without a harvest tag by the landowner. And how would they establish reasonable grounds to enter private land? Your suspicions ? that he will actually spend his time trying to track down a wounded deer. Remember. He apparently has no interest in venison or hunting verified the fact he didn't want to spend less than $50 to Purchase his own license. So the only direct evdence you could have of this landowner possessing an illegal deer is something you saw or recorded while trespassing on the farmers land? Suggestions acquire permission in advance of the hunting season with adjoining land. Then restrict your hunting area to the areas of land that you have neighboring permission to retrieve. Common courtesy would be to place a call to the owner of the land and advise him that the necessity to enter his land to retrieve a deer has occurred. Now your hunting state land, shot a deer but don't believe you actually made good kill shot, so you decide to wait 4-8 hours before tracking your shot deer. Another hunter in his stand( ground, tree etc,) sees the deer die within 100 yards of his stand. He waits 3 hours with apparently no hunter pursuing the blood trail of the deer. So he decides to not let the deer go to waste( nature take its course). And goes over to the deer and as required by law begins to complete the harvest tag to legally possess the deer. After doing so, you finally catch up with your deer, and inform him that you shot the deer four hours ago. What would you do? Realize that you didn't find your deer until he has already filed out his harvest permit for the deer. So, to be a nice guy and give the deer to you, negating his ability to take a deer of is own( harvest tag all ready used). Awful big price to pay for not wanting the deer to go to waste . So many hunters give up tracking a poorly shot deer to early. Possible solutions to avoid this circumstance:: practice with the weapon you choose to hunt. Discipline yourself to take only kill shots ( shot that you decide not to pursue tracking for 3-4 hours really is not a great kill shot. To many hunters are influeneced by these Tv shows that review the shots on the camera to see the location of the shot. And then make a decision whether to track or back out and track 4-6 hours later or the next day. UNDERSTAND they have that Liberty to do so. They are hunting private land of probably 300-1000 acres or more. The only thing they have to worry about is the weather dissipating the blood trail or coyotes getting to the deer My questimate would be 80-90 % of the hunters don't own a parcel of land that size that they hunt.. So, if you think my thought process is incorrect, it will only take a minute to verify with the DEC. Realize that this is only my educated( limited) opinion. What I believe to be the correct application of the hunting licence and the harvest permit. If you think it is wrong. please submit name and number of DEC contact that instructed you that this is not the case. I'm stating this is a reasonable suggestion, but to verify with DEC, before accepting as factual. Your negative comments would attempt to mislead the followers of this thread as FACTUAL information without the courtesy of supplying either the location or person/ # where the factual information can be verified.

Wnyhunter thanks locating the applicable DEC ruling about age of hunters that can hunt alone. My interpretation would be the following: If this is the first time you have ever hunted big game you are required to be accompanied by a parent or guardian for the duration of your initial big game season afield. If unable to have parent or guardian present, a person over 18 may accompany you provided they have written permission from your parent or guardian. In addition, the parent, guardian, or assigned guardians must be in possession of a current big game hunting license. Now if you have hunted under a junior hunting license it is my belief that you have nullified the hunting big game for the first time requirement. So a 16 year old, may go afield legally by themselves for big game providing they have hunted big game previously with a junior hunting license. But as stated that is my interpretation . Verify with call to DEC.

This is really a comical thread. Cost of doing something is,always taken into consideration. Where there is an overpopulation of deer, hunting is a good means of reducing the population. But probably more than a,day. And it is a cost effective method. Now to address the lack of deer in certain areas. It's the states fault? You have to be kidding me, As stated there are many reasons for areas with low deer populations. How about over population of humans(pressure) and lack of habitat(food), You know I've bass fished in many ny lakes. Never thought of blaming the state for the days were my catches didn't meet my expectations. If they have chosen to live in an area with a low deer population deer hunting wasn't a high priority. After the fact the ludicrous suggestion that the state relocate the deer to their area? So, they don't have to be put out with traveling to the other 90% of the state with decent deer populations. Yes they might have to invest some time and money, but they would rather have the state invest the money to make their life easier. Notice the paradox? Sounds like the appropriate term for relocating deer should be called hunters WELFARE. Yes the state should use the monies collected from all of us, to satisfy these lazy hunters. If your hunting experience only has meaning with a kill, the country is loaded with deer farms were you can buy(shoot) trophy deer. in any case judging the size of the deer herd has to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. To the two members that submitted the twilight zone and deer sign( they will follow) posting I appreciate your humor. To the members that feel the need to control the thought process of others by submitting numerous posting concerning the thread, a more concise posting would be appreciated, Unless the number of posting under your name validates your hunting prowess.

My Enviromental Conservation law 11-0929. States that licensees between 14 and 16 May not hunt wildlife with a Gun or long bow unless accompanied by an individual 18 or older. This was taken from the website - www.ncsl.org minimum hunting age status( all states). So by this status you wouldn't be allowed to hunt wildlife by yourself until you are 17. However, you can hunt wildlife with a Gun if your accompanied by someone 18 or older. Note it doesn't state accompanied by a licensed hunter. The operative word is accompanied. Basically, I would suggest that you share a ground blind with another hunter ( each responsible for 180 degree of blind) Hopefully your choice of an adult hunter would get more joy out of witnessing you take your first deer, than taking one himself. If your unable to get an adult hunter( experienced) a non hunting adult would satisfy the states requirement, However there is more to hunting than placing an ethical kill shot on a deer. In fact pulling the trigger probably will be the start of your hunting experience. Be nice if your person that accompanies you knows how to field dress your deer. At least can guide you for your initial journey. Things to take Into consideration of your two person hunting group. Make sure one of you have a map of the area, compass,gps, and ability to read both. My dad had me start with a single shot shotgun as I did my two boys. Makes you really concentrate on placing an ethical kill shot on the deer, Because the second shot will be delayed minimum of 10-15 seconds. Most probably there won't be a second shot. Hope my info gives you some help and good luck this season.

What characteristic traits do you ultilize to identify each buck on a year to year basis?

a- 3.5 yrs B- 2.5 yrs C-2.5 yrs B&C still have straight line backs and stomachs. A is showing a slight droop in the stomach area.