Will NY state lands remain "forever wild"?

[tuckersdaddy]

And besides how much does anyone really think they will benefit by big gas corps making a ton of money on gas fracking in our backyards. Look how well we have done with big oil and their promises. Record oil and gas prices despite oil being drilled right here in the states at record amounts. Then they tell us well it goes to the world market and speculators set the price worldwide, sorry. And this is some how supposed to justify 40% increases in gasoline and heating oil in 2 week periods. Yea bend over America.

Im sorry but I just have to look at anything a corporation tells me will be good for us with just a touch of skepticism....

 

ahh you bring up 2 good points, world markets and speculators, neither of which are the energy companys. Both are products of bad government. its interesting to look at country like suadi arabia or dubai, they have the lowest energy prices in the world, yet they feed the world market. they simply take care of themselves first. and why is energy on a speculation market? when you allow this to happen you put more middle men into the mix, the more hands that touch it the more money it cost the end user. the same thing that occurs in the dairy business. the price of milk is $3.50 a gallon, and the farmers need to be subsidised in order to stay afloat. so when you buy a gallon of milk why dont you curse the farmers?

[tuckersdaddy]

You know how the internet works ..... you start watching a link that someone provides and before you know it, you are off wandering into other pages and spending all kinds of time that you never intended to .... lol. Well, that's what happened when I checked out the above link. Before I knew it, I was watching videos of a lady setting her tap-water on fire, and other people talking about having to leave windows open year around to alleviate the gas fume build-ups in their house. Others were shown receiving water deliveries because their sources were contaminated beyond use. There were other people complaining about a constant parade of heavy trucks rumbling by their house. And you get the idea .... it was some direct testimony by ordinary people at their houses, or at wherever they had to move to escape the environmental hazards that were occurring at their former homes. I found these people to be very credible. It is a little exercise that might be worth the time of anyone who is in love with the hydrofracking process, or thinks that opposition to it is simply hysteria, or simply those that care to be educated a little on the issue.

 

The more I learn about this process, the more I find myself on the side that is concerned about what is being rammed down our throats in the name of corporate profits. Check some of that stuff out. It's quite eye-opening. This world already has enough man-made contamination and poisons injected into our lives. I am beginning to be quite skeptical of this process as another major self-induced environmental catastrophe. And I think the argument that it is all for "jobs" just isn't quite hacking it as a justification for poisoning a resource that is required for human life.

 

'If it on the internet it has to be true!' i've seen quite a few of these videos and they present a shock and awe effect. but look into it a bit further. Ask any water well driller if they have ever had gas in a well, the answer might surprise you. the odor people associate with as sulfur is natural gas. so to have some gas in a drilled water well is not uncommon. the one i like is the guy sitting at his table explaining how he found 3 types of weapons grade plutonium in his water? and since pa was mentioned lets talk about the antis favorite town, Dimock. i have a coworker from there, she claims the water has never been 'that good'. bad tasting, deposits on everything, laundry no cleaner then when it was put in. she is 56 and has lived there her whole life. so is fracking the last 5 years the cause of all of this? lets not forget the water has been tested by every gov. agentsy and many independent labs and keeps coming up clean. the problem i have is how its presented to us. dont try to scare me into making a decision. give me the facts as is. in its early stages there were problems with fracking, very serious ones at that. all of which have been documented, reported on and learned from. its like being able to fly any where in the world today, would you try it with the wright brothers plane? no, but with todays technology its safe and efficent as long as all the rules are followed.

 

Edited April 17, 2013 by tuckersdaddy

[tuckersdaddy]

never mind.

 

I caught this post before you took it down. you should have left it. the only thing that made me take notice was the statement that cuomo, and obama are profracking.  there more like pro who giving me votes and lining my pockets . if both were profracking we would be having this conversation, we would be complaning about the trucks running up and down the road. you know cuomo has the political will to do it or there wouldnt be a safeact, no one wanted that. i believe there may be some form of corperate ethics happening, or they would have just payed for him to become president and drilled away. or they thought cuomo would be just a bad investment. either way they payed the price by not being able to drill. obama is the same. if they were pro drilling anware and the coast would be tapped, or at least pipelines would be approved. Control over the masses is what they are after, and by allowing any group or person to aquire  that kind of wealth and the power that may follow is what they are preventing.

 

oh and as far as the venting flame? i hear they are quite romantic for a mid-night picnic! 

Edited April 17, 2013 by tuckersdaddy

[Doc]

'If it on the internet it has to be true!' i've seen quite a few of these videos and they present a shock and awe effect. but look into it a bit further. Ask any water well driller if they have ever had gas in a well, the answer might surprise you. the odor people associate with as sulfur is natural gas. so to have some gas in a drilled water well is not uncommon. the one i like is the guy sitting at his table explaining how he found 3 types of weapons grade plutonium in his water? and since pa was mentioned lets talk about the antis favorite town, Dimock. i have a coworker from there, she claims the water has never been 'that good'. bad tasting, deposits on everything, laundry no cleaner then when it was put in. she is 56 and has lived there her whole life. so is fracking the last 5 years the cause of all of this? lets not forget the water has been tested by every gov. agentsy and many independent labs and keeps coming up clean. the problem i have is how its presented to us. dont try to scare me into making a decision. give me the facts as is. in its early stages there were problems with fracking, very serious ones at that. all of which have been documented, reported on and learned from. its like being able to fly any where in the world today, would you try it with the wright brothers plane? no, but with todays technology its safe and efficent as long as all the rules are followed.

Well, that's a very nice advertisement, but I see an awful lot of this stuff put up by people that really have no monetary stake in these decisions. In fact some of them would have potential financial gain if they just kept their mouths shut and took the gas company's money. Whenever I look at these impossible to resolve issues, I let the motives help with determining who is lying. The one thing that I have not had explained to me yet is, "What exactly are all these people gaining by telling lies"? It's clear what the gas companies and others in that industry would have to gain by shading the truth a bit, but what are the motives of these farmers and residents?

[mike rossi]

Well, that's a very nice advertisement, but I see an awful lot of this stuff put up by people that really have no monetary stake in these decisions. In fact some of them would have potential financial gain if they just kept their mouths shut and took the gas company's money. Whenever I look at these impossible to resolve issues, I let the motives help with determining who is lying. The one thing that I have not had explained to me yet is, "What exactly are all these people gaining by telling lies"? It's clear what the gas companies and others in that industry would have to gain by shading the truth a bit, but what are the motives of these farmers and residents?

On the other hand, one of Cuomo's top officials, and former vice president Dick Cheney, have financial ties to the industry as does someone in PA's government..  Cheney served as the CEO of Haliburiton Energy while he was VP. His company invented fracking and while VP he used his power to exempt fracking from the Clean Air / Water Acts.

 

Politicians cant even be trusted by their own wives, Clinton, Spitzer, Arnold, and who knows how many others. What the hell should I trust them for?

[PREDATE]

Haven't people in Dimmock Township been lighting their water for years? I think so.

Windsor,NY had residents claiming that as well 5-10 years ago. Never been any fracking done there!

 

The wells are pretty quiet after they burn off the impurities.

[Meat First]

Unfortunately as far as fracking is concerned you will never know what to beleive...common sense tells you yeah its(shale deposits) a mile down so what harm can it do but then we know not to fully trust these big corporations..on the other hand you get these crazy enviro people who are lighting jugs of so called "water" on fire to make there point...The facts that I do know to be true are from my own experience for I have had a gas lease for the last few years and the checks are helping me put two kids through college....no windfall by any stretch but I'm not complaining...now I get letter from gas co's lawyers and it looks like they are going bankrupt because they have leased all this land but NYS is not letting them drill...

[Doc]

Somebody walks up to you and says "We're going to use this stuff to manufacture our product. We are going to use it on properties all around yours, and maybe even yours if we can bribe you with enough money. But because the ingredients are proprietary, we won't be telling you what it is ...... Trust me". Are you going to trust that guy?

 

There are a couple of things about drinking water. You need it to live, and once it's screwed up, there's no fixing it. When your talking about a process that is even suspected of having the potential of doing that, what amount of money makes that acceptable?

 

Also, I need someone to explain exactly what the motives are for these people who are actively campaigning against the process. What are they getting out of it? I know what the gas companies are trying to achieve, but why are these people supposedly making all this stuff up about the spills and the negative effects of the toxic soup. Where's the motive for lying? can anyone explain that part of the puzzle to me?

[mike rossi]

Doc, I thought I decided to stay out of this one, but in post 33 you say: " We are going to use it on properties all around yours, and maybe even yours if we can bribe you with enough money" But it doesn't work quite that way...

 

If a landowner refuses the bribe he doesn't retain his property rights, all he does is allow them to go ahead and not pay him a dime. This is allowed under Compulsitory Integration and Eminent Domain. If a majority of your neigbors give the industry a green light, your screwed...

 

I heard of at least one section were a company told a group of landowners that one of them will be like a "lottery winner", that is the person who gets the actual well pad and the most money. Other landowners would have roads and pipelines and will be paid, but much less. The lease  salesman achieved majority consensus and when the well pad was put in, it was 500 feet from one of the landowners home. However, the resident of that home was not the "lottery winner". It was right in their backyard, but not on their property. The adjoining landowner, who lived far a way, won the lottery and got paid the big bucks while the people who got a  backyard gas well got paid crumbs and their house became unsellable and miserable to live in.

 

Another thing I did not see mentioned here is the structural damage of houses from the vibration, another complaint of people who live near well pads. It is something else that may be worth looking up.

Edited April 18, 2013 by mike rossi

[Doc]

Doc, I thought I decided to stay out of this one, but in post 33 you say: " We are going to use it on properties all around yours, and maybe even yours if we can bribe you with enough money" But it doesn't work quite that way...

 

If a landowner refuses the bribe he doesn't retain his property rights, all he does is allow them to go ahead and not pay him a dime. This is allowed under Compulsitory Integration and Eminent Domain. If a majority of your neigbors give the industry a green light, your screwed...

 

I heard of at least one section were a company told a group of landowners that one of them will be like a "lottery winner", that is the person who gets the actual well pad and the most money. Other landowners would have roads and pipelines and will be paid, but much less. The lease  salesman achieved majority consensus and when the well pad was put in, it was 500 feet from one of the landowners home. However, the resident of that home was not the "lottery winner". It was right in their backyard, but not on their property. The adjoining landowner, who lived far a way, won the lottery and got paid the big bucks while the people who got a  backyard gas well got paid crumbs and their house became unsellable and miserable to live in.

 

Another thing I did not see mentioned here is the structural damage of houses from the vibration, another complaint of people who live near well pads. It is something else that may be worth looking up.

I don't know .... I'm still new to this issue and am trying to play "catch-up". It's interesting to see how cavilier people are when it comes to sources of drinking water. It's kind of like, "oh well, so what. It's only water". I am still trying to get at the truth of both sides. I have to say that just based on motives and potential consequences, I kind of  hold the gas companies to a much higher standard of proof.

[tuckersdaddy]

I don't know .... I'm still new to this issue and am trying to play "catch-up". It's interesting to see how cavilier people are when it comes to sources of drinking water. It's kind of like, "oh well, so what. It's only water". I am still trying to get at the truth of both sides. I have to say that just based on motives and potential consequences, I kind of  hold the gas companies to a much higher standard of proof.

 

Doc, a much higher standard of proof is whats needed. And since the  gas companies are a profit driven enterprise (god forbid), by forcing them to ante up before hand, their profits will be tied up unless they do their jobs correctly. 

 

as far as the antis? some are motivated by a true convictions. these are the same people that fight every non-natural use of the environment. they are the people who refuse man made pesticides, fertilizers and the such, and they always stick to their convictions. These folks i have respect for.

many are told within our liberal biased education system that gas is bad, go stir the pot, and since they act like sheep and cant think for themselves they follow the lead.

Some want the notoriety by becoming youtube celebs. some want to 'get back' at the gas companies because their neighbors may have gotten a 'better deal'. 

So far very little anti-science has been brought forward. I would love to hear hard facts like shale is poris below 25 microns and frack fluid is 15 microns, but it dosent exist.  Everything out there for the antis is emotion driven, not fact driven. 

 

meat first is why people support drilling, it has help put his kids through school, and heats his new (and very nice) hunting cabin. Mike is correct, only a few will become jed clampit, but many will get an economic boost.

[tuckersdaddy]

Doc, I thought I decided to stay out of this one, but in post 33 you say: " We are going to use it on properties all around yours, and maybe even yours if we can bribe you with enough money" But it doesn't work quite that way...

 

If a landowner refuses the bribe he doesn't retain his property rights, all he does is allow them to go ahead and not pay him a dime. This is allowed under Compulsitory Integration and Eminent Domain. If a majority of your neigbors give the industry a green light, your screwed...

 

I heard of at least one section were a company told a group of landowners that one of them will be like a "lottery winner", that is the person who gets the actual well pad and the most money. Other landowners would have roads and pipelines and will be paid, but much less. The lease  salesman achieved majority consensus and when the well pad was put in, it was 500 feet from one of the landowners home. However, the resident of that home was not the "lottery winner". It was right in their backyard, but not on their property. The adjoining landowner, who lived far a way, won the lottery and got paid the big bucks while the people who got a  backyard gas well got paid crumbs and their house became unsellable and miserable to live in.

 

Another thing I did not see mentioned here is the structural damage of houses from the vibration, another complaint of people who live near well pads. It is something else that may be worth looking up.

 

'Take our bribes or we'll screw you'.....

 

So the lease salesman lays out the whole plan to the area, tells the people in the area who gets paid for what, and what the rates are... So why should i feel sorry for them? they didnt have to say yes. many areas and townships have said no.

The house isnt unsellable. real estate is about the package. sure if they want top dollar and retain the gas royalties it wont sell. if the royalties go with the property, the values increase accordingly. 

 

neighbor relations are neighbor relations. it dosent matter if its a gas well, gravel bed, clear cutting trees, a pig farm, or just an annoying donkey, their property is theirs, mine is mine,and the fence companies stay in buisness.

[tuckersdaddy]

On the other hand, one of Cuomo's top officials, and former vice president Dick Cheney, have financial ties to the industry as does someone in PA's government..  Cheney served as the CEO of Haliburiton Energy while he was VP. His company invented fracking and while VP he used his power to exempt fracking from the Clean Air / Water Acts.

 

Politicians cant even be trusted by their own wives, Clinton, Spitzer, Arnold, and who knows how many others. What the hell should I trust them for?

 

most anyone with a 401k plan have financial ties to energy companies. Yes some politicians actually had real jobs before getting into politics.

 

 

Oh and Dick Cheney resigned the ceo position to become vice-president, took a hell of a pay cut too...... 

[Ford]

I see a lot of no fracking signs around my place. I am all for cheap fuel. But I can honestly say I can not seem to get to the bottom line on this. The thread has been interesting, but I still am lost as far as fracking. I am fracking lost.

[tuckersdaddy]

I see a lot of no fracking signs around my place. I am all for cheap fuel. But I can honestly say I can not seem to get to the bottom line on this. The thread has been interesting, but I still am lost as far as fracking. I am fracking lost.

 

Start with the basics... find out how much of the island is even drillable? my guess is not a whole lot if any.  if its not drillable then you have a non issue. 

[Ford]

Start with the basics... find out how much of the island is even drillable? my guess is not a whole lot if any.  if its not drillable then you have a non issue. 

 

My place is in Chenango county. Not an island, unless you consider North America an island.

[Doc]

'Take our bribes or we'll screw you'.....

 

So the lease salesman lays out the whole plan to the area, tells the people in the area who gets paid for what, and what the rates are... So why should i feel sorry for them? they didnt have to say yes. many areas and townships have said no.

The house isnt unsellable. real estate is about the package. sure if they want top dollar and retain the gas royalties it wont sell. if the royalties go with the property, the values increase accordingly. 

 

neighbor relations are neighbor relations. it dosent matter if its a gas well, gravel bed, clear cutting trees, a pig farm, or just an annoying donkey, their property is theirs, mine is mine,and the fence companies stay in buisness.

I guess I wouldn't worry about fracking problems if only the impacts respected property lines. Unfortunately water veins don't stop at the end of property lines. And of course, traffic noises of heavy trucks, and dust, and destroyed viewscapes, do not only occur on properties that are being compensated. It's kind of like zoning laws that try to protect home owners from having rat infested stinking open dumps established next door. Something of this magnitude does have community-wide impacts even for those that are not receiving a penny of compensation.

 

Yes, some townships are attempting to close the doors to this sort of thing, but of course that is what all the fuss is all about. Those townships are under the threat of lawsuits by gas corporations with deep pockets with the potential of having landowner rights and wishes trampled by the court system. I saw it with the windfarm fiasco, and I am seeing it again with the gas companies. Money talks and usually winds up having priority over any other concerns.

[mike rossi]

most anyone with a 401k plan have financial ties to energy companies. Yes some politicians actually had real jobs before getting into politics.

 

 

Oh and Dick Cheney resigned the ceo position to become vice-president, took a hell of a pay cut too...... 

Even if he resigned,  does anyone believe he dumped his stock? When Cheney's "Haliburton Loophole" was signed into law, I am sure investors, including good old Dick, played the market accordingly.

Edited April 19, 2013 by mike rossi

[tuckersdaddy]

I guess I wouldn't worry about fracking problems if only the impacts respected property lines. Unfortunately water veins don't stop at the end of property lines. And of course, traffic noises of heavy trucks, and dust, and destroyed viewscapes, do not only occur on properties that are being compensated. It's kind of like zoning laws that try to protect home owners from having rat infested stinking open dumps established next door. Something of this magnitude does have community-wide impacts even for those that are not receiving a penny of compensation.

 

Yes, some townships are attempting to close the doors to this sort of thing, but of course that is what all the fuss is all about. Those townships are under the threat of lawsuits by gas corporations with deep pockets with the potential of having landowner rights and wishes trampled by the court system. I saw it with the windfarm fiasco, and I am seeing it again with the gas companies. Money talks and usually winds up having priority over any other concerns.

 

ahhhh..... there is the quandary. we must not trample on the property rights of those who wish not to have drilling, but what about the property rights of those who wish to use their natural resources? how often do you hear of this much protesting when a gravel bed is put in? when the dredges dig down to the water table and open it up to the atmosphere, the potential for contamination is tremendous, and often unmonitored. i find it disgusting when a property owner (and the state) decide to pick a section of woods and clear cut it,  with complete disregard for erosion. and the eyesore of the madison county wind farms it not appealing. But the fact of the matter is its not my land. that is what the property owners decided to do. so be it.

Edited April 20, 2013 by tuckersdaddy

[tuckersdaddy]

My place is in Chenango county. Not an island, unless you consider North America an island.

 

my mistake, your location says LI. and yes if you think about it N. america is an island! lol

 

Well that changes everything, your right in the heart of it as am I. The link i posted earlier are drill sites that are proposed, or permits have been filed for in chenango. i believe its for norris only, and there are other companies involved as well. now is the time to do your homework and ask questions. the gas companies are telling you who, what, where, and why, the question is just when.

[tuckersdaddy]

Even if he resigned,  does anyone believe he dumped his stock? When Cheney's "Haliburton Loophole" was signed into law, I am sure investors, including good old Dick, played the market accordingly.

 

Yep just like every other politician does in office. but im pretty sure U.S. fracking wasnt the mother load for haliburton compared to the iraq oil field management contracts. but thats a for a different thread if you would like to start one.

[Doc]

ahhhh..... there is the quandary. we must not trample on the property rights of those who wish not to have drilling, but what about the property rights of those who wish to use their natural resources? how often do you hear of this much protesting when a gravel bed is put in? when the dredges dig down to the water table and open it up to the atmosphere, the potential for contamination is tremendous, and often unmonitored. i find it disgusting when a property owner (and the state) decide to pick a section of woods and clear cut it,  with complete disregard for erosion. and the eyesore of the madison county wind farms it not appealing. But the fact of the matter is its not my land. that is what the property owners decided to do. so be it.

Yes, there is always a problem when one property owner's use of his land impacts others. And it is a legitimate concern. Our whole system of zoning laws deal with that sort of thing because there are real effects from one neighbor to another. Effects such as my example of a neighbor creating a dump just over the lot-line, and rats and bugs and disease and smells and filth leaching into drinking water. Should the homeowner have no recourse? I think that is the issue at stake with this fracking topic. When does a homeowner have a legitimate stake in the land uses of others? Is it determined by how much money is to be made? Is it determined by how many jobs that can be created? Is it determined by some notion of energy independence? I think it is an issue of health first, collateral property damage second, and then maybe the other considerations can be factored in.

 

My first concern is that I don't believe that there should be any secrecy about this toxic soup that they use when the liklihood exists for accidental pollution of area resources. They want it to be a secret, then they should be denied its use ..... period. Once the nature of this stuff is disclosed it should be studied to disclose what impacts could be expected on the resources of adjoining properties. That should include casual use with no incidents, as well as with spills and other accidents. If those impacts are severe, the use should be denied. The recipe should be closely monitored to ensure that it never changes without the same extensive studies being performed. If they do tamper with the formula without re-examination, the well should be denied and the company cited.

 

It's probably plain that I am on the side of the property owner. I think there is and always has been way too much rough-shod treatment of landowners by the wealthy trying to get wealthier. It is situations like these that make me say, whoa there, let's slow down a bit. Let's figure out the truth of all this. It's not about money or jobs or energy independence, but simply about right and wrong treatment of one neighbor by another. 

[mike rossi]

Yep just like every other politician does in office. but im pretty sure U.S. fracking wasnt the mother load for haliburton compared to the iraq oil field management contracts. but thats a for a different thread if you would like to start one.

Did you ever ask yourself why wasn't that "mother load" enough? The operant is GREED. This industry has no moral boundaries. That is why laws , exist in the first place.

[mike rossi]

About the Iraq oil field contracts, despite them the price of oil barrels didn't go down they instead hit record high prices. Is there something I am missing?

[tuckersdaddy]

Did you ever ask yourself why wasn't that "mother load" enough? The operant is GREED. This industry has no moral boundaries. That is why laws , exist in the first place.

 

Just looked at a map..... yep were still in the U.S. not europe. I do believe the purpose of ANY company is to make money. That is how my paycheck is covered every week. You're typing away on a pc or mac... im sure it dosent bother you that microsoft and apple make a fortune every time you log on....

If the industry has no moral boundries then how do you explain this... http://wnbf.com/new-pennsylvania-plant-cleans-frack-water/. if the industry has no morals issues such as this would not be being addressed. 

So what is it you do for a living? im sure there are people that think your billable hours or products are thievery, but i believe that you have to charge what you charge to make your mortgage payments, feed your kids, buy a rod to go  fishing. This is america, this is what we do, this is what built this country.