Is NYB shooting themselves in the foot?

[WNYBuckHunter]

That's what I thought. No proof. Just blowing alot of smoke.

Coming from you, the king of no proof, that statement is pointless. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

When did I ever say I have one single issue that I disagree with them about?

Look Doc, I know that you think that NYB speaks for every bow hunter in NY, thats your opinion, but your opinion on this is not fact. This is why I do my part with letters and emails to my legislators about issues that I agree or disagree with. I also encourage others to do the same. It seems to me, from hearing comments at some of the meetings and seeing as the x-bow bill is all but law at this point, that the tactic of contacting legislators is working. 

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

Oh, and yes, I and others have said that NYB has done some good things in the past and they are currently working on others.

By the way, speaking of effectiveness, you might want to take note of the fact that the legislation as passed did indeed get changed to exclude crossbows from the bowhunting seasons. You don't suppose that that happened just by accident do you?

I don't care how small the organization is, they are the only ones who have the lobbying mechanism in place. They are the ones who fight for all the goodies that you so eagerly take advantage of. Go back and review that list of NYB accomplishments that I posted. How many of those did you write letters about? How much of ANY of that can you individually take credit for? Yes, by golly those people did speak for you and all bowhunters, and through a forum that actually has some meaning and effect, (not some individual lone e-mail). And yes you and all the NYS bowhunters have been very quick to take advantage of those things that they spoke up for on your behalf.

Doc

How many times do I have to say that NYB has done some good things before you get it?

Who taught you about how government is setup to work? The system is setup so that each and every person has the ability to lobby their legislators, not just groups like NYB. As far as the list you presented, I wrote zero letters about any of those, most of them happened either while I lived out of state or before I was even participating in archery at all. So no, NYB did not speak for me on those issues or any other, nor will they ever speak for me. If you are willing to let a small group of people speak on your behalf, even if you dont agree with what they are saying, then you deserve whatever you get. I, on the other hand will continue to write letters and emails to my legislators on issues that I feel are important, and I will also continue to encourage others to play an active role in their government, even if they do not wish to join up with a group they do not believe in or agree with.

Oh, and just like before when I said "mark my words, crossbows WILL become legal in NY" on the old Empire site, mark my words, crossbows WILL be allowed into archery season before you know it. Getting them legalized for use in NY is only the first step in getting them to be allowed in all hunting seasons. 

[finfeathr]

If using a crossbow will get a few more young people interested in the outdoors, and get thier butts off the couch,and thier cell phones, and playstations, then we should all support it.

Rich

Rich, young people don't need a crossgun to participate in archery season. Contact any NYB member or go to any archery shop and I'm sure they will devote time and energy to get that person pointed in the right direction with archery equipment. 

If you are suggesting no special seasons at all and everyone use what they want, that is a bad idea.

If you want to use a crossgun in archery season then I want to use my pistol during muzzleloader season. 

And, if a crossbow is interesting to them, they should be able to use it... I am not suggesting no special seasons, but strongly feel that crossbows should be legal in the archery season as well. Just my opinion.

You seem to be proving my point about the elitist attitude amongst the archery community."Let the young people learn to shoot  only the devices I see fit for use in MY season"

The comment about using a pistol in muzzleloading season is silly. Again, it proves my point...let's argue endlessly about protecting the sanctity of "archery season". You know, it was only a short time ago that there was a big hullabaloo from the "traditional" archery group about those that use compounds...in fact, the arguments pretty much paralleled the arguments against crossbows now.....

Lets face it..it all boils down to a competition thing...some hunters that use sticks and bows are afraid that they will have to compete for deer with a new group that have sticks and bows....we are all out there to enjoy the pastime and nature, why ruin it with bickering. All it does is give the anti's more ammo when we bitch enlessly about this crap.

Do you really feel there will be that much more competition for a deer? Do you truly feel that there will be an onslought of crossbow hunters lining the trees? Probably not.

For the record, I belong to NY Bowhunters, have thier brochures in my shop, and am a donating booster.

I just don't see this as a horrible doom and gloom situation, but another way to enjoy the outdoors.

Sorry if anyone is offended, it's just my honest opinion..

Rich

[Doc]

How many times do I have to say that NYB has done some good things before you get it?

Who taught you about how government is setup to work? The system is setup so that each and every person has the ability to lobby their legislators, not just groups like NYB. As far as the list you presented, I wrote zero letters about any of those, most of them happened either while I lived out of state or before I was even participating in archery at all. So no, NYB did not speak for me on those issues or any other, nor will they ever speak for me. If you are willing to let a small group of people speak on your behalf, even if you dont agree with what they are saying, then you deserve whatever you get. I, on the other hand will continue to write letters and emails to my legislators on issues that I feel are important, and I will also continue to encourage others to play an active role in their government, even if they do not wish to join up with a group they do not believe in or agree with.

Oh, and just like before when I said "mark my words, crossbows WILL become legal in NY" on the old Empire site, mark my words, crossbows WILL be allowed into archery season before you know it. Getting them legalized for use in NY is only the first step in getting them to be allowed in all hunting seasons. 

You have a very naive and overly optomistic view on the power of individual letters. We don't have lobbyist simply because people want to throw away money. And NYB just like NRA and any other sportsmen's organization is a lobbying group. So while it may be a feel-good activity to write letters and such, the real influence is wielded by organized groups of people and of course lobbyists with financial influence. Don't get me wrong, I too write plenty of letters and more recently freely use the email to forward my thoughts and concerns to lawmakers and other movers and shakers within the government, but I have to tell you that the results have been a bit disappointing. Some have actually been a bit comical and have ranged from answers regarding totally irrelevant and unconnected issues to some rather "in your face" replies basically saying, "not interested". Further I have sent in some letters that offered opinions that differed with the NYB and received a reply that was exactly the same as those that sent in letters agreeing with the NYB position received. So I think that politicians have learned that constituent opinion is not really all that important to their re-election campaigns. The only time there is a significant difference to that is when you happen to be writing in concert with a vast majority or your opinion happens to agree with other financial interests that the politician values. Yes that seems like a cynical look at the world of politics but unfortunately it represent the real world. So one man standing alone writing his little letters may feel real good, but he is not nearly as significant as he would be if he was part of a larger block of people with the same opinion. I hate to tell you, but it is just a fact of life. I would suppose that that is why you spend the money to be a member of the NRA. My guess is that you really do understand the value of organization. It just doesn't happen to be convenient to admit that belief when it comes to the NYB vs. your crossbow campaign.

And you still will not admit that the NYB has and does speak for you and on your behalf even though I have proven it to you. That's funny. No, that's stubborn....lol. But you have no problem taking advantage of those things that they have fought to win for you. And then bad-mouthing them to boot. Well, what the heck, I guess there simply are some people like that. That's what makes the world go around.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

BTW, nothing to say about how NYB attacks other sportsmen and archers on a regular basis?

I forgot to address this crock that you laid out there with no explaination. I guess you are still talking about the crossbow issue. First of all, there has been no attack on sportsmen. There is a well publicized stance against adding crossbows into bow seasons. This is a stance based on the fact that NYB believes that crossbows are inappropriate weapons for an archery season. Wether or not you agree, the NYB has the right to reach that opinion. That's not an attack on anybody. You might call it an attack on crossbows .....lol.

NYB has gone much further than stating that crossbows are not appropriate for use in archery season, they have gone so far as to call it the weapon of choice for poachers and insinuate that users are not real sportsmen, etc etc.

If you're talking about muzzleloaders, I think you have things a bit reversed. It was the Muzzleloaders who were the aggressors in that issue. And, in fact if that is your allegation, you are a bit out of date since the NYB (much to my dismay) has been working in cooperation with the NYMLA on a recent proposal create early season opportunities for primitive muzzleloaders. That doesn't sound too much like an organization that is out attacking other sportsmen.

No, I wasnt referring to that, but now that you mention that whole can of worms... ;D

So my view of your allegations is that they are just some more of the continuing baseless lashing out at the NYB, an attitude that I find totally confusing coming from any bowhunter.

Doc

Maybe its because I see myself as a hunter/sportsman first and a bow or gun hunter second. I am not an elitist in any regard, and I would much rather see individuals be given a choice in what weapon to use in the designated season. I just happen to believe that crossbows are appropriate for use in archery season for many reasons, but the biggest one being, they are archery equipment.

[Doc]

And, if a crossbow is interesting to them, they should be able to use it... I am not suggesting no special seasons, but strongly feel that crossbows should be legal in the archery season as well. Just my opinion.

You seem to be proving my point about the elitist attitude amongst the archery community."Let the young people learn to shoot  only the devices I see fit for use in MY season"

The comment about using a pistol in muzzleloading season is silly. Again, it proves my point...let's argue endlessly about protecting the sanctity of "archery season". You know, it was only a short time ago that there was a big hullabaloo from the "traditional" archery group about those that use compounds...in fact, the arguments pretty much paralleled the arguments against crossbows now.....

Lets face it..it all boils down to a competition thing...some hunters that use sticks and bows are afraid that they will have to compete for deer with a new group that have sticks and bows....we are all out there to enjoy the pastime and nature, why ruin it with bickering. All it does is give the anti's more ammo when we bitch enlessly about this crap.

Do you really feel there will be that much more competition for a deer? Do you truly feel that there will be an onslought of crossbow hunters lining the trees? Probably not.

For the record, I belong to NY Bowhunters, have thier brochures in my shop, and am a donating booster.

I just don't see this as a horrible doom and gloom situation, but another way to enjoy the outdoors.

Sorry if anyone is offended, it's just my honest opinion..

Rich

Rich-

Once again the attitude is being pushed that if you are to be a team player, you need to roll over and give up all beliefs that you might have about what belongs in these special seasons and what doesn't. Unless you bend over and tear down all definitions of what are appropriate weapons, you are being devisive and combative. Basically you are saying that there should be no limitations and if anyone proposes them, they are evil people working against the sport of hunting. Those that want to put any limitations on weapons in these special seasons are elitists. That's a nice little term and just one more term to add to the long list of name-calling  that people use when they have run out of polite arguments. Well, In the most polite way possible, I would just like to say, "That is a crock".

let's just suppose that pistol shooters proposed being allowed into muzzleloading season (since that has been brought up). Do you suppose that the muzzleloaders would simply sit back and say "ok fellas come on in, and bring those guys with the single shot shotguns with you". Probably not. Most likely they would fight like hell. And then you would come along preaching about how we should all get along and stop bickering and how devisive it is that the muzzleloaders are being so darn selfish and elitist.

It is appropriate that you mentioned the old compound bow controversy. I was around back in those days. I was basically saying the same things that crossbow proponents are saying today. I remember those old codgers griping about the precedents that were being set by letting this contraption into bow seasons. Isn't it amazing how right they were. Isn't it the most often used argument for now cramming crossbows into bowseason. How many times have we heard the bogus comparisons of compounds to crossbows. Even though it is an inappropriate precedent, it is being used as a precedent none the less. So today with a new layer of bowhunting definition being torn down, one has to wonder just what new additions will the crossbow be used as a precedent for? Layer by layer, bowhunting definitions continue to be torn down. Each time the whole idea of a special season required for bowhunting gets a little more difficult to justify. Where will it all end. You tell me. No one seems to be willing to draw a line in the sand. Most likely that line will never be drawn. So, let's just continue bastardizing the sport. Today we are looking at entering the "missing link" ..... half bow half gun. Which half will take over in the next generation of new entries based on the precedents of the old? Let's blur the lines of what bowhunting is.  Let's just see how many different things we can push into that season. I have heard primitive muzzleloaders questioning why they can't be a part of bow seasons. Kind of a primitive weapons season. Well, it's getting harder and harder to say they can't. lets not be devisive, exclusionary, elitists (hope I haven't left out any of the favorite name-calling terms ..... lol), and just roll over for the whole deal at once and then we won't be guilty of bickering and causing problems in the sporting community.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

How many times do I have to say that NYB has done some good things before you get it?

Who taught you about how government is setup to work? The system is setup so that each and every person has the ability to lobby their legislators, not just groups like NYB. As far as the list you presented, I wrote zero letters about any of those, most of them happened either while I lived out of state or before I was even participating in archery at all. So no, NYB did not speak for me on those issues or any other, nor will they ever speak for me. If you are willing to let a small group of people speak on your behalf, even if you dont agree with what they are saying, then you deserve whatever you get. I, on the other hand will continue to write letters and emails to my legislators on issues that I feel are important, and I will also continue to encourage others to play an active role in their government, even if they do not wish to join up with a group they do not believe in or agree with.

Oh, and just like before when I said "mark my words, crossbows WILL become legal in NY" on the old Empire site, mark my words, crossbows WILL be allowed into archery season before you know it. Getting them legalized for use in NY is only the first step in getting them to be allowed in all hunting seasons. 

You have a very naive and overly optomistic view on the power of individual letters. We don't have lobbyist simply because people want to throw away money. And NYB just like NRA and any other sportsmen's organization is a lobbying group. So while it may be a feel-good activity to write letters and such, the real influence is wielded by organized groups of people and of course lobbyists with financial influence. Don't get me wrong, I too write plenty of letters and more recently freely use the email to forward my thoughts and concerns to lawmakers and other movers and shakers within the government, but I have to tell you that the results have been a bit disappointing. Some have actually been a bit comical and have ranged from answers regarding totally irrelevant and unconnected issues to some rather "in your face" replies basically saying, "not interested". Further I have sent in some letters that offered opinions that differed with the NYB and received a reply that was exactly the same as those that sent in letters agreeing with the NYB position received. So I think that politicians have learned that constituent opinion is not really all that important to their re-election campaigns. The only time there is a significant difference to that is when you happen to be writing in concert with a vast majority or your opinion happens to agree with other financial interests that the politician values. Yes that seems like a cynical look at the world of politics but unfortunately it represent the real world. So one man standing alone writing his little letters may feel real good, but he is not nearly as significant as he would be if he was part of a larger block of people with the same opinion. I hate to tell you, but it is just a fact of life. I would suppose that that is why you spend the money to be a member of the NRA. My guess is that you really do understand the value of organization. It just doesn't happen to be convenient to admit that belief when it comes to the NYB vs. your crossbow campaign.

And you still will not admit that the NYB has and does speak for you and on your behalf even though I have proven it to you. That's funny. No, that's stubborn....lol. But you have no problem taking advantage of those things that they have fought to win for you. And then bad-mouthing them to boot. Well, what the heck, I guess there simply are some people like that. That's what makes the world go around.

Doc

I wrote out a whole reply to this, but its all pretty much the same stuff I said a few posts back. No point in saying it to you again, you obviously cant or dont want to understand for whatever reason.

The thing that cracks me up the most about your argument Doc, is that you sit here and basically say to people that if they are not a member of NYB, then their opinion doesnt and wont count. You couldnt be further from the truth.

[Doc]

Claiming that a crossbow is the weapon of choice for poachers is a weapon of choice for poachers might be a slam against poachers. Do you have a problem with that? And, as far as the insinuations, I would like to see something a bit more definitive. I suspect that you are confusing comments on this forum with statements and positions of NYB. Try to keep those sorted out.

Quote: "Maybe its because I see myself as a hunter/sportsman first and a bow or gun hunter second. I am not an elitist in any regard, and I would much rather see individuals be given a choice in what weapon to use in the designated season. I just happen to believe that crossbows are appropriate for use in archery season for many reasons, but the biggest one being, they are archery equipment."

That's all very nice, but I believe that in order to be a hunter/sportsman does not mean that you have to compromise on the definition of bowhunting. I also believe that that over-used word "elitist" is not very descriptive of those that do not believe the crossbow is appropriate in bowseasons. I know you guys think there is something clever about tossing that word around, but it certainly is inappropriate in this use. But, what the heck, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

You certainly have a right to be for crossbows as much as I or the NYB has a right to believe they are inappropriate for bow seasons. The question for you is whether that issue is adequate reason to trash the only New York  bowhunting organization and withold your support (and I guess you do). If you think that that single issue negates all the good things that they have done and will do in the future on your behalf, then I guess you have no choice but to withold your membership and support. I think that's silly, but let's face it you have nothing to lose with that attitude. The NYB will continue to go on working to get bowhunting benefits on your behalf, and it won't cost you a dime. A pretty good deal indeed for those that want to play the game that way.

Doc

[Doc]

The thing that cracks me up the most about your argument Doc, is that you sit here and basically say to people that if they are not a member of NYB, then their opinion doesnt and wont count. You couldnt be further from the truth.

Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that the way to get the biggest bang for your buck is to work through an organization. Chances are pretty good that those organizations will be asking members to write letters and emails in addition to their own behind the scenes negotiations. That is the way to not only get attention, but actually demand attention. One lone guy out there writing a letter that may or may not be focused with anyone else's is definitely not going to get any attention and it is totally naive to think that it will.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Claiming that a crossbow is the weapon of choice for poachers is a weapon of choice for poachers might be a slam against poachers. Do you have a problem with that? And, as far as the insinuations, I would like to see something a bit more definitive. I suspect that you are confusing comments on this forum with statements and positions of NYB. Try to keep those sorted out.

Quote: "Maybe its because I see myself as a hunter/sportsman first and a bow or gun hunter second. I am not an elitist in any regard, and I would much rather see individuals be given a choice in what weapon to use in the designated season. I just happen to believe that crossbows are appropriate for use in archery season for many reasons, but the biggest one being, they are archery equipment."

That's all very nice, but I believe that in order to be a hunter/sportsman does not mean that you have to compromise on the definition of bowhunting. I also believe that that over-used word "elitist" is not very descriptive of those that do not believe the crossbow is appropriate in bowseasons. I know you guys think there is something clever about tossing that word around, but it certainly is inappropriate in this use. But, what the heck, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

You certainly have a right to be for crossbows as much as I or the NYB has a right to believe they are inappropriate for bow seasons. The question for you is whether that issue is adequate reason to trash the only New York  bowhunting organization and withold your support (and I guess you do). If you think that that single issue negates all the good things that they have done and will do in the future on your behalf, then I guess you have no choice but to withold your membership and support. I think that's silly, but let's face it you have nothing to lose with that attitude. The NYB will continue to go on working to get bowhunting benefits on your behalf, and it won't cost you a dime. A pretty good deal indeed for those that want to play the game that way.

Doc

Im not compromising the definition of archery season. Since the crossbow is archery equipment, it should be included in archery season. Its as simple as that. FITA, the National Archery Association and most other archery organizations classify them as archery equipment, why is it NYB is allowed to say that they are not or should not be considered archery equipment? So in turn, elitist fits perfectly in this case.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The thing that cracks me up the most about your argument Doc, is that you sit here and basically say to people that if they are not a member of NYB, then their opinion doesnt and wont count. You couldnt be further from the truth.

Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that the way to get the biggest bang for your buck is to work through an organization. Chances are pretty good that those organizations will be asking members to write letters and emails in addition to their own behind the scenes negotiations. That is the way to not only get attention, but actually demand attention. One lone guy out there writing a letter that may or may not be focused with anyone else's is definitely not going to get any attention and it is totally naive to think that it will.

Doc

Im not putting words in your mouth, just summing up your sentiments. 

Really? Then tell me, if your opinion on this is true, how did a crossbow bill get as far as it has in NY when there are no crossbow organizations here?