12 year old shot dead by playmate

[rebal]

Two boys were playing with loaded firearm in Wilton (Saratoga) home.  Tragic to say the least!  This is likely what the libs have been waiting for in order to expolit.  So far I have heard nothing of where the parents were. 

[Mr VJP]

This is a tragedy.  Whichever parent was responsible for leaving a handgun where their 12 year old son had access to it, should be charged and jailed.

            WILTON,  N.Y. (AP) — An immigrant couple who left Brooklyn to find peaceful  refuge in upstate New York are grieving the death of their 12-year-old  son, who was accidentally shot in the head by a friend playing with  a handgun.

Police say Nicholas Naumkin,  a seventh-grade honor student who was fluent in Russian and English,  was shot Wednesday evening at a friend's home in suburban Wilton, 35  miles north of Albany. The 12-year-old friend had found his father's  loaded pistol in the home, a split-level ranch with a broad front porch  on a leafy cul-de-sac.

Yuri Naumkin, Nicholas' father, told the Albany Times-Union  he immigrated from Russia to Brooklyn 20 years ago and moved to Wilton  four years ago because he and his wife Oxsanna, who is from Ukraine,  wanted to keep their two boys away from guns and gangs.

"We  moved here because we thought it was going to be safer for our children  to grow up," Naumkin said. "We ended up right in the middle of  the nonsense."

Standing  near a Christmas tree surrounded by wrapped gifts for Nicholas and his  younger brother, Naumkin said he believed citizens should have access  to information about who owns guns so they can decide if they want  their children around them. He had allowed Nicholas to go to the  friend's home for a sleepover.

"While they have the right to have a gun, I would like to have the right to know that they have one in their house," he said.

Oxsanna  Naumkin said her husband had gone to the friend's home to drop off  pajamas and a toothbrush for Nicholas and found police cars there.  Nicholas had been taken by ambulance to Albany Medical Center, where he later died with his parents at his side.

The Saratoga County Sheriff's office withheld the name of the boy who fired the gun. Saratoga County District Attorney James Murphy  said his office and the sheriff's department would be investigating the  case through the holiday weekend and would not release further  information until Monday.

"He was a wonderful boy," Oxsanna Naumkin said. "He was a very beautiful boy and gentle, very, very smart."

[132 eight pointer]

Heartbreaking to say the least.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Or maybe the kid should have been taught about guns early and reminded often, so as to curb the curiosity of them. Like anything else, early education is key with guns. Having a handgun for protection isnt going to work too well if its locked up at all times.

Antis havent been waiting for this to happen, it happens across the country every year due to irresponsible people.

[bubba]

+1 wny. I was going to say that, but knew I would get booed and ran out of town, or no one would read it and say the same thing three psots down.  It is a sad situation, but as you said early and intense education is the key.

[nyantler]

my son's would never have thought of touching my guns as younger boys... they were educated early about guns...I let them shoot a gun at a young age which immediately showed them that guns were not a toy.. something about the feel and sound of a gun when a kid actually experiences shooting it that cures them of wanting to "play" with one.. it's a shame that a family has to suffer the loss of a child and another child has to live with the fact that he killed is friend.. what a tragedy!

[Mr VJP]

I have a small Cannon handgun safe that's about the size of a shoe box.  It has 5 push buttons on it to unlock it.  I have it set with a 3 button combination.  Unless you push the correct 3 buttons, in the correct sequence, it will not open.  But you can open it and get to the loaded revolver inside in 3 seconds or less, even in the dark, when you know how.

No matter how much education you give a kid, you never know when they will disobey you, or show your gun to the friend who will grab it in spite of your child's protests.  No child should ever be able to get at a gun on their own.  I don't know about NY, but in NJ it's the law to be sure a minor doesn't have easy access to any gun in the home.  I hate the fact a law is in place, but it's cases like this that prompt one to be imposed.

When I was young I had a couple of friends who got the heck beat out of them for getting at their father's guns, but these little s.o.b's were willing to risk a beating anyway and they would still do it.  They just learned not to get caught in the future.

You can buy lots of handgun safes that prevent a child from getting at a loaded gun that will not impede your ability to get to it if you need it.

[bubba]

yes we need mor elegislation to protect ourselves from ourselves.  It wont be a law to have them locked up, it wll be  a law not allowing us to have them.  I gues when a kid finds car keys and steals the car and kills someone, then we should outlaw cars too and lock up the parets for not locking up the keys. 

[nyantler]

Much easier to feel comfortable having my handgun more readily available now that we have no kids in the house... I'm sure that situation will change once we have grandchildren

[bubba]

well both my daughters have cc permits and shoot as well as I do, so I feel more comfortable knowing they can use it if needed.

[Mr VJP]

Bubba, you should know by now I hate any type of law infringing on my personal liberties, and I never said I agreed with, or want a law in place on this issue.  However, it is because these things happen that these type of laws are forced upon us.

I do not want a blaze orange law on the books either, but I think not wearing blaze orange while hunting is not safe.  I hate motorcycle helmet laws and seat belt laws too, but I would never not use either of those safety devices.  I don't drink or use the cell phone while driving either.  Some things should never need a law to control people, but some people are willing to accept unacceptable risks.  And that leaves open the door for big government to step on us.

Trusting a small child to be safe around a loaded gun is too risky for me to be comfortable with.  Take a chance if you want, but I know, with 100% certainty, this will never happen with one of my guns.  Therefore I feel my position is in the best interest of all gun owners as well.

So, if you don't believe guns should be inaccessible to minors, then perhaps you would support life in prison for the adult responsible for a child's death.

Would it be worth the risk then?

[bubba]

my children grew up in my house with guns accessible. I never had an incident where they broke the rules.  They were taught what guns were, what they can do, and to stay away.  Now they both have cc permits as I stated.  I would support that law if you are willing to support a law that states no matter what kids do, the parents will pay the price. If a kid finds the keys to the car and goes and kills someone, then the parent needs to go to jail for life also.

[Mr VJP]

I would support a law that says parents are responsible if they enabled the kids actions, yes.  I also never leave my keys anywhere a minor could get to them.  I believe in never taking any chances where a minor is concerned.  Their brains don't work like responsible adults.  They need to earn the right to be called an adult, and that only comes when all of the responsibility for their actions are on them and no one else. 

You are lucky you had good kids.  If you didn't, your only recourse after someone got killed was to beat them.  That won't bring a dead child back.

[bubba]

I know I am from the uncivilized part of the state, but, I never beat my kids. I educated my kids and soent tim ewith my kids, as well as others kids.  I would like to offer how many homes in NY have guns?  How many incidents a year of this type happen?  Ted Kennedys car has killed more people than my guns have.  But, no one wants to take our cars away.

[Mr VJP]

No, but thank God he took Ted Kennedy away!

But you don't leave your car on the street with the keys in it do you?

Regardless of how many incidents like this happen each year, each one is preventable by an adult that has enough foresight to prevent it.

[bubba]

I doubt that. 

[Mr VJP]

Bubba, if I recall you are a Hunter Safety Instructor, correct?  I would think you would be teaching responsible gun ownership along with safe gun handling.

Is that not part of the course when teaching people about guns?

[bubba]

I also have to teach wearing BO. Does that mean I have to wear it?  umm no. Maybe some peoples idea of responsible gun ownership is teaching young people how to use them, respect them and when to use them. We teach store guns and ammo in separate places, and the 4 safe gun handling rules.  I am willing to bet this kid who pulled the trigger never took a course.  Can you tell me the 4 safe gun handling rules?  Maybe the gun owner who had the handgun never hunted or took a course either.  Nice try to make me look like I dont do my job correctly when teaching.  You show me any teacher who believes in everything they have to teach.

[Mr VJP]

Whoa, Bubba.  That was not my intent at all.  It was just a question.  It just seems to me it would be part of a safety course.

    RULE 1

  ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

  The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and  he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down,  Rule 1 applies again.

    RULE 2

  NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

  You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that  you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow  a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should  always be treated as such.

    RULE 3

  KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TILL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

  This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible  for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

     

    RULE 4

  BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

  You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You  never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot  only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond  it.

How do we know the father had not instructed the kid to never touch the gun?  How do we know if the kid had been through a hunter safety course?  We don't.  What we do know is the kid was able to get his hands on a loaded gun and kill another child with it.  I think if the gun were kept locked up, this would never have happened.

[bubba]

you got two right

they are

1  always treat every gun as if it is loaded

2 always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

3 know your target ans well beyond

always keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.

[Mr VJP]

Umm, If you go back and read what I posted, I think that is what I just said, only worded differently.  Which two did I get wrong?

If I took the test in your class and you marked two of my answers wrong, we would have to take it to a higher authority.

P.S.  I am an NRA certified firearms instructor and this is taken right out of my training manual.

[bubba]

umm I didnt see anythng about beyond your target which is very important.  also never let the muzzle cover anything you do not want to shoot at is too slack.  And if you put those answers on my test you could go to any authority you want. The test requires you know them word for word,according to the state not your own interpretations. In fact when you come to my second session, you have to write them down word for word when you come in.  If you can't you leave class.  Maybe you better take the class again before you tell me what I am doing wrong and threaten me with my regionl coordinator. He is the higher autohority.  Feel free to contact him for clarification if you want. His name is Andy McDuff region 6 coordinator. And oh yeah he knows me by bubba.  Maybe the parent didnt teach the kid anything about the gun.  In fact I bet h e didnt.  That is the fathers nrglect.

[Mr VJP]

The issue of beyond the target is there at the end of rule #4

How do you shoot an animal or a human threat if you keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at that time?

My 4 rules are a little more detailed.  Perhaps because they are used to train adults for self defense purposes.

I could easily regurgitate anything word for word after memorizing it.  But I teach people to think of what the rules mean besides knowing what they are.  If you were to mark these answers wrong on a kid's test and the scoring was challenged, I think you would, or should, be over ruled.

Perhaps we need to add a fifth rule as well.  "Be responsible for your loaded weapon at all times in order to prevent it's unauthorized use by anyone else."

[bubba]

I should have known you would know more that the state who sets the class up.  You should become an instructor.  You could fix all the problems with the program.  You coud be a master instructor in no time.  But this pissing contest is over as far as I am concerned.  How can you possibly lower your supreme intelligence to talk to a person such as myself.  Bottom line is a kid got shot.  it is tragic.  Is there negligence yes. On whom neither you nor I know.  That is up to the authorities to decide.  Let me know when you want to apply to be an instructor, I will give you the details on how.  Just remember you are the one who brought up the whole idea I was an instructor and obviously I do a bad job.  Also remember you were the one who coulld not answer the questions, then argue you know more than the state and threaten me with goingto a supervisor when you have no clue what is involved.  Merry Christmas.

[Mr VJP]

:

Offense can not be given, only taken Bubba.  None meant.

Merry Christmas to you also.