Ladder vs OCW(optimum charge weight)

[shawnhu]

When doing load development, which method do you prefer to use, or if you don't use either of these, what is your method to find the best load?

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[Lawdwaz]

I use a couple methods of selecting powder.  First I'll see what the bullet manufacturer says is the most accurate and if that powder doesn't trip my trigger I'll go with a favorite of mine such as H335, IMR4350, RL15, RL19 etc that is also compatible with the bullet.

 

Then I'll formulate a plan starting below book max by loading 3-5 cases with half grain powder increments UNDER MAX. 

 

IE: 44gr MAX I'd load at 42.5, 43, 43.5 and see WTH is cooking as they roll through the chronograph.  If all is cool with FPS and pressure looks good (black magic) then I may load up to the MAX of 44gr but rarely do I shoot MAX stuff.  Reason being I had a badly blown primer in my 223ai one HOT summer day.  The ammo and gun sat in the hot sun for a bit and BLAMO.  The woodchuck died but an eyeball was almost fried too.  I pulled all the bullets, dumped the powder and loaded them back up with a half a grain LESS.  Woodchucks never could tell the difference...................................

 

You've been loading for a while now, haven't you? How's it been going?

[shawnhu]

Probably under a year. But in reality, only have shot under 200 rounds combined. Due to barrel being really thin, I'm not able to develop a load in a single session.

Getting out to a range has also been a challenge with a family now.

Hopefully, when I do have time, I'll have a plan of attack ready to get this thing tamed sub-moa.

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[Lawdwaz]

Thin barrel means three shot groups to me.  Then unfortunately after that three shot group that thin barrel might need as much as 10 minutes to cool all the way down, maybe more??  (you could always mothball the quest until cold weather arrives...... )

 

You've probably mentioned it but what is the gun & chambering? 

 

Have you tinkered with seating depth?  Different primers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whoa.......................hang on there buckaroo, WTH is "Getting out to a range has also been a challenge with a family now."

 

Say WHAT, you get hitched and have kiddo's now?  Congrats!!

[shawnhu]

Actually, I've been married and had one kid before my centerfire adventures. It's just more demanding now with a second. Feel a bit guilty leaving her alone with two for hours on end.

It's a savage 11, LWH in .243 Win. Since my last loads, I've acquired more Nosler and some Sierra. I also have three different powders and 3 different primers as well. Brass was also expanded to Lapua.

I've also shot a .308 rifle that was extensively worked on. Shooting factory ammo, I was able to put 4 in the same hole at 100yrds and one cut upper right, probably my fault. Until this event, I have been doubting if it was me or the rifle. I'm thankful I was given the opportunity to shoot such an accurate .308 to have the confidence in working on my .243 once again.

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[Jaeger]

I've been using the typical method of looking up which powder seems most efficient grains/load density/velocity in several of the manuals with the bullet I want to use and work up the load .5 grains at a time.

 

This has worked very well but is very time counsuming and can get VERY EXPENSIVE with expensive premium bullets.

 

I read an article on another forum about picking your bullet and powder.  Loading 5 rounds at the bottom end load, and 1 round each at increasing powder loads.  This method is to look for where in the load range the bullets start to cluster while stringing vertically.

 

The method is to shoot at 200 or better yards and use the first 5 rounds to get sighted in.  allowing the barrel to cool and avoid hot spots during the session.  Then firing the remaining rounds and watching the vertical string.  The rounds should group or cluster at a certain load range over several grains and then keep stringing upward.

 

Its in this cluster powder level that the most accurate load will be found for that powder and bullet.   It needs 200 yards or better to be able to see the stringing/cluster pattern and certainly saves bullets firing 3 at each load increment.

 

I have not tried it yet, but it certainly sounds interesting.  My main problem is our local range maxes out at 200 yards and if the gun bullet combo is particularly accurate, it may be hard to discern the cluster pattern in the string of shots.

 

Going to give it a try with my new 235's and 350's in .375 H&H and the 240's in 30-06, woodleighs all of course!!

[shawnhu]

I've been using the typical method of looking up which powder seems most efficient grains/load density/velocity in several of the manuals with the bullet I want to use and work up the load .5 grains at a time.

This has worked very well but is very time counsuming and can get VERY EXPENSIVE with expensive premium bullets.

I read an article on another forum about picking your bullet and powder. Loading 5 rounds at the bottom end load, and 1 round each at increasing powder loads. This method is to look for where in the load range the bullets start to cluster while stringing vertically.

The method is to shoot at 200 or better yards and use the first 5 rounds to get sighted in. allowing the barrel to cool and avoid hot spots during the session. Then firing the remaining rounds and watching the vertical string. The rounds should group or cluster at a certain load range over several grains and then keep stringing upward.

Its in this cluster powder level that the most accurate load will be found for that powder and bullet. It needs 200 yards or better to be able to see the stringing/cluster pattern and certainly saves bullets firing 3 at each load increment.

I have not tried it yet, but it certainly sounds interesting. My main problem is our local range maxes out at 200 yards and if the gun bullet combo is particularly accurate, it may be hard to discern the cluster pattern in the string of shots.

Going to give it a try with my new 235's and 350's in .375 H&H and the 240's in 30-06, woodleighs all of course!!

You speak of a variation of the ladder method.

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[Dinsdale]

 350's in .375 H&H...... woodleighs all of course!!

 

Planning a Buff hunt with the 350's?......must be reading some Kevin Robertson, Doctari's a big fan of those.

[Lawdwaz]

Planning a Buff hunt with the 350's?......must be reading some Kevin Robertson, Doctari's a big fan of those.

 

and 240's in the 30-06 are for what, big northern whitetails????

[Pygmy]

With cartridges in the "40 grains and up" capacity range, like most deer rounds on up, I seldom mess with half grains while developing a load. Jump a grain maybe even 2 grain with larger cases, until I identify a trend..I save the fractions of a grain for fine tuning, and even then never go finer that .5 grain.. Now if I were loading say, a .222 rem, it would be different...

The one exception is when I am loading near max...Often high intensity cartridges shoot most accurately just as hot as you can safely load them..If I know I'm approaching max but the group is still shrinking, I will work up in .5 grain increments.

[Jaeger]

You speak of a variation of the ladder method.

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Correct, I think.

 

The ladder method you are referring to, can you please explain it in detail?  Does it use multiple shots, say 3-5, at each specific load to check group size?  Or is it something I'm not appreciating?

 

I think we are talking about something similar, it's just I haven't heard the term "ladder method".  But I've only been in reloading for a couple of years and only have one buddy who reloads.

 

The method I read about used only one shot at each specific load weight.

[Pygmy]

Jaeger... I'm getting the impression that you are a " heavy for caliber" kinda guy...<<grin>>...

[shawnhu]

Correct, I think.

The ladder method you are referring to, can you please explain it in detail? Does it use multiple shots, say 3-5, at each specific load to check group size? Or is it something I'm not appreciating?

I think we are talking about something similar, it's just I haven't heard the term "ladder method". But I've only been in reloading for a couple of years and only have one buddy who reloads.

The method I read about used only one shot at each specific load weight.

That's correct. The method you read about(not the one you are currently using) is called the ladder. It's basically shooting rounds in increasing powder charge until you start seeing a range of charge grouping together. Most do it in .1-.3 charge increments. Usually one load per charge.

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[Jaeger]

Planning a Buff hunt with the 350's?......must be reading some Kevin Robertson, Doctari's a big fan of those.

Did originally purchase the .375 with dreams of an australian water buffalo hunt.  Hasn't panned out yet, got a elk hunt planned 2 years out.

 

But loading the 350's to get a better idea of the recoil of a custom big bore I have on order.  I didn't want to go out and buy a 45-70 with 400- 500 grs bullets.

 

I find a great deal of difference in felt recoil (vs calculated recoil) when the recoil number is due to weight vs. velocity.  For example, given the same recoil number, I'll take the heavy bullet load over the faster velocity load.  

 

I can deal better with the shove of the heavy bullet and not so much with the sharp jab of a high velocity load.  And yes, I do know the recoil velocity is the culprit, not just the recoil energy.

[shawnhu]

Was able to get out to the range and shoot off a few rounds. Here's the results at 100 yards.

Temp was in the 20's, and winds around 18mph.

Next step in development will be to shoot groups of 3 in multiple charges, but haven't decided what charge weight to load up yet.

Feedback is welcome.

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[Lawdwaz]

I see the velocity listed for the 85gr Sierra load listed from hand load.com, what length was there barrel and what is yours ?

Made any decisions yet on what loads to start the group shoot with?

Any signs of pressure that your found such as tight bolt lift, cratered primers etc.?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Lawdwaz

[thphtm]

Shawnhu , I am in the process of putting together a .222 rifle. gathering up load data for fox and yotes. What do you think of the Nosler BT Varmint or the Nosler Varmageddon Bullets in 40 grain .

[shawnhu]

I see the velocity listed for the 85gr Sierra load listed from hand load.com, what length was there barrel and what is yours ?

Made any decisions yet on what loads to start the group shoot with?

Any signs of pressure that your found such as tight bolt lift, cratered primers etc.?

My barrel is 20", and theirs is a Model 12, BVSS, a 26" varmint barrel.

No signs of pressure even though I exceeded listed maximum charge.

I haven't made a decision on which loads to group, but I have a general idea. Looking for pointers before I load up the next batch.

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[shawnhu]

Shawnhu , I am in the process of putting together a .222 rifle. gathering up load data for fox and yotes. What do you think of the Nosler BT Varmint or the Nosler Varmageddon Bullets in 40 grain .

I think the Nosler Varmageddon is an excellent bullet to start testing with for fox and yotes.

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[airedale]

Those are not fur friendly bullets, in other words if you are looking to sell the hides you should use a less explosive bullet especially on Fox. In the 22 caliber I like Sierra 52 grain match bullets, they are very hard and do not expand so violently as a varmint bullet. They will do the job very well without blowing huge holes in your hides.

 

Al

[thphtm]

Not looking to sell hides , just want to reduce the population,buzzards will clean up the mess.

[shawnhu]

Today's temps was mid 30's with light 0-5mph winds.

Due to low winds and increased temps, barrel was hearing up fast and I wasn't able to get off more than the 13 plus 3 fouling shots off before I had to leave.

Largest group was .996, smallest .428

Charges from left to right are 40.8gr, 41.2gr, 41.6gr, 42.0gr.

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