DEC Announces Proposed Rule Changes to Allow Big Bore Air Rifles for Big Game Hunting

[Tacti_Steve]

650 fps with a hollow point would be enough for a 30-40 yard shot. The DEC wants to open them up because they want people like me to hunt closer to villages (which I do). I have a .22 spring pellet gun and it does 1200 fps. Its no joke. I would like one because they're quiet. No need for everyone in the village to know I shot. I hate how loud guns are. I lost a lot of my hearing because a 50 cal went off next to my head in the military. There is no reason we can't and shouldn't use suppressors (not silencers). This is a step towards that. 

[Buckmaster7600]

650 fps with a hollow point would be enough for a 30-40 yard shot. The DEC wants to open them up because they want people like me to hunt closer to villages (which I do). I have a .22 spring pellet gun and it does 1200 fps. Its no joke. I would like one because they're quiet. No need for everyone in the village to know I shot. I hate how loud guns are. I lost a lot of my hearing because a 50 cal went off next to my head in the military. There is no reason we can't and shouldn't use suppressors (not silencers). This is a step towards that.

A 30 cal projectile at 650 fps is completely underpowered for deer and would not have enough energy to open a hollow point.

That's over 1000fps slower than a 30 carbine and a 30 carbine is at the bottom of the spectrum for a deer cartridge.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Buckmaster7600

[Tacti_Steve]

A 30 cal projectile at 650 fps is completely underpowered for deer and would not have enough energy to open a hollow point.

That's over 1000fps slower than a 30 carbine and a 30 carbine is at the bottom of the spectrum for a deer cartridge.

At close range 650 would be perfect for urban hunting. One of the reasons I use 22 shorts for hunting coons with is because they don't go all the way through, but the HP still opens causing max damage inside. The slugs get stuck on the exit side of the pelts. A larger slug going that fast is going to carry more momentum and make it therefore further. A Deer is thicker than a coon so the slug would still not go through. Which where I hunt and is the intention behind the DEC is a good thing. 650 fps would be fine for 20-30 yards. It's the slowest I would go and would like to see closer to 900 fps but it would do the job if you aim right. 

[Doc]

This is another one of those areas where we have new technology entering the scene with way too little data or empirical information to make any kind of educated judgment. Consider for a moment how many decades of proven results it has taken for hunters to get confidence in each caliber to establish solid expectations and confidence in each deer caliber. It should not be surprising that when this new weapon comes on the scene with performance specs that are so far short of traditional norms, there would be some skepticism.

 

Calibers and loads are a hotly contested subject even now, and along comes somebody (a government body at that) that is pushing an energy delivery system that is far below anything ever considered adequate. I don't see how it could be anything but controversial. So given enough time perhaps it will prove itself adequate. But until all those mass trials (years of results) by hunters, the question of whether it should be considered to be a good clean deer harvesting weapon, the arguments will go on.

 

I just hope I don't crack a tooth on some projectile that couldn't make it any farther than half way through one of the roasts that somebody shot up before I got to the next deer that I shoot ..... lol. Sorry, but such jokes are going to have to be put up with until the air rifle eventually wins confidence in the deer hunting world (if it indeed ever does).

 

 

[Tacti_Steve]

Agreed

[Buckmaster7600]

At close range 650 would be perfect for urban hunting. One of the reasons I use 22 shorts for hunting coons with is because they don't go all the way through, but the HP still opens causing max damage inside. The slugs get stuck on the exit side of the pelts. A larger slug going that fast is going to carry more momentum and make it therefore further. A Deer is thicker than a coon so the slug would still not go through. Which where I hunt and is the intention behind the DEC is a good thing. 650 fps would be fine for 20-30 yards. It's the slowest I would go and would like to see closer to 900 fps but it would do the job if you aim right.

I own a 300 b o and my 220gn subsonic load at 900ish fps they were VERY unimpressive on the 2 hogs I killed with it that I would never shoot another animal with them. Completely inadequate in my opinion with my experience and research. I can only hope NY does not make them legal. I would think that a .40 diameter or larger 200+ gn projectile at 1000+ fps would be adequate with a solid bullet.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Buckmaster7600

[Tacti_Steve]

They may not be good rifles for hunting but that is no reason the government should say we can't hunt with them. If the technology doesn't work hunters won't use it. Opening it up for the market to use will spur innovation and improvements to the technology. Outlawing it will stall the development by the free market. If we allow the government to regulate every new technology we end up with laws that banning a semi-auto because it has a pistol grip. When in fact that technology improves the gun. These air rifles do not pose any significant threat to society therefore there is no reason for the government to regulate them and tell me I cannot use them for hunting. That is for me to decide. If society (other hunters) don't like me using it then they will put social pressure on me not to use it. It is not just cause to send me to jail.

[Vince1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o0XVa5oyMU

 

 

Tracking that animal in early season would have been a pain in the butt.

 

people being who they are you would get guys out there taking iffy shots. I see a lot of unrecovered animals in the future.

 

 

friend of mine got a deer with a rifle this year and I went over to help in gut it for the experience. as we were cleaning the meat we pulled out the slug that took him out. but he dropped right where he was. with an air gun they will run as the kill shot is like that of an arrow

 

im not against this, but for me a crossbow does the same thing and leaves a better blood trail on a bad shot

Edited January 16, 2016 by Vince1

[13BVET]

Tracking that animal in early season would have been a pain in the butt.

 

people being who they are you would get guys out there taking iffy shots. I see a lot of unrecovered animals in the future.

 

 

friend of mine got a deer with a rifle this year and I went over to help in gut it for the experience. as we were cleaning the meat we pulled out the slug that took him out. but he dropped right where he was. with an air gun they will run as the kill shot is like that of an arrow

 

im not against this, but for me a crossbow does the same thing and leaves a better blood trail on a bad shot

While I can see your point, I've had deer still travel with a slug right through the vitals, especially bucks, during the rut.

[13BVET]

I've noticed a lot of questions on this topic, and that's understandable. Let's start with the ones pertaining to the noise levels of big bore airguns. In some places, (I'll use Southwestern Dutchess as an example), the development has been so overwhelming, that noise is a huge factor. We've had a lot of people move up from down below, who panic every time a shotgun is discharged. I've had the police called on me, on numerous occasions, although I was over 500' away at those times. I would drag a deer out of the woods where I used to hunt, just to have the police waiting for me. It is not unusual to have that happen to you here. It gets to the point as to where you become leery about taking a shot. Less noise would eliminate that headache.

 

Power levels seem to be another thing that is being questioned. The fact of the matter is, that the commercially made big bores are the lower end of the spectrum, when it comes to power. There custom airgun makers, who will build you one with much more power, if you're willing to spend the money. Yes, they're very expensive, if you're willing to pay for them.

[13BVET]

^{Another thing, is that pcp's (pre charged pneumatics), can gain more power, by just putting a heavier hammer spring in it. You'll lose shot count, but you'll certainly gain more power.}

[Buckmaster7600]

So because they are quite makes them okay to wound animals?? I'm all about new stuff but a 30cal projectile at those speeds are insufficient to regularly kill and RECOVER a deer sized animal!

[shawnhu]

So because they are quite makes them okay to wound animals?? I'm all about new stuff but a 30cal projectile at those speeds are insufficient to regularly kill and RECOVER a deer sized animal!

More or less often than an arrow?

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[13BVET]

So because they are quite makes them okay to wound animals?? I'm all about new stuff but a 30cal projectile at those speeds are insufficient to regularly kill and RECOVER a deer sized animal!

 

Seriously? They certainly carry more foot pounds than the bow, and yet the bow is quite effective.

[13BVET]

So because they are quite makes them okay to wound animals?? I'm all about new stuff but a 30cal projectile at those speeds are insufficient to regularly kill and RECOVER a deer sized animal!

 

The fact of the matter is, that a .22 will kill a deer, if it's hit in the right spot.

[13BVET]

So because they are quite makes them okay to wound animals?? I'm all about new stuff but a 30cal projectile at those speeds are insufficient to regularly kill and RECOVER a deer sized animal!

 

Okay, so here's a prime example. The Air Force Texan, .45, 1000fps, producing over 500 ft lbs of energy. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce_Texan_Big_Bore_Air_Rifle/3575/6923    This will most certainly take deer sized game very cleanly.

[shawnhu]

Okay, so here's a prime example. The Air Force Texan, .45, 1000fps, producing over 500 ft lbs of energy. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce_Texan_Big_Bore_Air_Rifle/3575/6923 This will most certainly take deer sized game very cleanly.

Stan, generally, people that are against something will be against it based on perceived principle, and they'll likely always be against it, regardless of how convincing the facts are. Many have exhibited very selfish behavior on this very thread about how the introduction of this implement may be taking away "their" season. Instead of that type of mentality, a true conservationist should be thinking, this new implement may introduce more people to the sport and give hunters a larger voice.

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[13BVET]

Stan, generally, people that are against something will be against it based on perceived principle, and they'll likely always be against it, regardless of how convincing the facts are. Many have exhibited very selfish behavior on this very thread about how the introduction of this implement may be taking away "their" season. Instead of that type of mentality, a true conservationist should be thinking, this new implement may introduce more people to the sport and give hunters a larger voice.

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I agree. Unfortunately, I think lack of knowledge of airguns, is a big factor also. You and I both know, that by putting in a heavier hammer spring, it will increase power significantly. You'll get less shots, but it will certainly up the power. As for the season issue, we know that it's just going to be incorporated into the regular season. I can't understand why this is such a big deal.

[Vince1]

I think lack of knowledge of airguns, is a big factor also. You and I both know, that by putting in a heavier hammer spring, it will increase power significantly.

 

I admit I know nothing about air guns. recurves, compounds, crossbows (check). but from what little googling and youtube vids I actually like the Texan.

 

I have two issues though. First I can shoot out to 45 yards with my xbow with very little noise. that's the max I have practiced at.

it seems with air guns I would only get another 5 to 10 yards before the slug wouldn't exit the other side. but I can get pass throughs with my broadheads at that range. maybe im wrong cause honestly I don't know and im just going by what vids I have seen.

 

second issue is with the wound channel it leaves, it seems that unless you get a perfect shot on a calm animal your just asking for issues. someone posted a vid of a guy taking a shot on an animal and getting a heart shot which dropped the animal in under 40 yards, which is nice, but I don't know about you but i hunt public land and man its been hard to get a shot on a calm animal. now i have seen guys with bows take shots at moving deer, i would guess that big bore air rifles would be getter at killing but cause more of an issue with unrecovered deer.

 

for me, a few added yards over my crossbow with what i feel is a higher chance of wounding an animal isn't worth it.

 

and honestly anyone saying its better for using close to residential or in areas where people don't like to hear shotguns going off could always just pick up a crossbow and get the same benefit an air rifle has. course that's just from what i have seen so far.

[Elmo]

The comparison between air gun versus bow/crossbow is inaccurate in my opinion. Hunting with an air gun I think is closer in comparison to hunting with a handgun.

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[Buckmaster7600]

Seriously? They certainly carry more foot pounds than the bow, and yet the bow is quite effective.

I guess if your comparing it to a field point maybe. A bow kill by blood loss not much bloodloss with a .30 hole.

Like I said I have no problem with the big bore air guns but a 30 cal at 600fps isn't ebough.

[13BVET]

_{Okay, I can understand the crossbow point, but, just like the crossbow, it's a personal choice. Also, just like the crossbow, it will face the same scrutiny from a lot of hunters. The fact is, that a lot of hunters also frown upon the use of a crossbow for hunting deer, as they see it as "cheating". As for the fears of just wounding deer, these air rifles (in fact, there's an air shotgun they make now), can be scoped for accuracy just like any other gun. As for exiting the other side, there was an issue with that at one time, but the ammo is much more improved today. I don't recall anyone I have communicated with on this issue, ever losing a deer after shooting it with a big bore, but I do know of people losing them after shooting them with the bow-and, for that matter, blowing their legs off with the gun. Since you only have one shot-just like with the bow, you have to be precise.}

[13BVET]

I guess if your comparing it to a field point maybe. A bow kill by blood loss not much bloodloss with a .30 hole.

Like I said I have no problem with the big bore air guns but a 30 cal at 600fps isn't ebough.

 

Oh, I'm not going to dispute the cutting abilities of a broadhead. And, quite frankly, I wouldn't dispute the .30 either. My preference would certainly be .45, and above.

[13BVET]

The comparison between air gun versus bow/crossbow is inaccurate in my opinion. Hunting with an air gun I think is closer in comparison to hunting with a handgun.

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I agree. I certainly threw that one out there without thinking.

[shawnhu]

I guess if your comparing it to a field point maybe. A bow kill by blood loss not much bloodloss with a .30 hole.

Like I said I have no problem with the big bore air guns but a 30 cal at 600fps isn't ebough.

The recommended speed is 650fps+ for big bore.

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Edited January 16, 2016 by shawnhu