Oregon Militia & Other Western Militias

[EspressoBuzz]

Watching this video I don't understand where these people get the courage and right to speak to the Law like they do. Several times telling the officers that a "bloodbath" will ensue if not allowed to continue and that "people" are coming. The hubris he has in believing he can come and go from an armed occupation site with impunity. The Feds have these people tagged as threats and I can see why. Why are we letting these people call themselves patriots?

 

Finicum Shooting Investigators Release Bundy Cellphone Video

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/lavoy-finicum-shooting-ryan-bundy-cell-phone-video/

 

Wrap your mind around this since 9/11  violent jihadist attack deaths in America 45, far right wing attack deaths 48.

 

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/lavoy-finicum-shooting-ryan-bundy-cell-phone-video/

 

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/september/militia_092211

 

Right now everyone is very worried about Islamic Extremists and rightly so, but remember these violent militia extremists are right here right now and seemingly not given much regard by everyday Americans. There are elected officials who would render to these militias aid and comfort. And just like Islamic Extremist who find shelter in the ranks of otherwise non-violent Islamist who look away and secretly admire their pious nature, we too have those who will not condemn these militias for their disregard of the federal gov't and federal law.

Edited April 6, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[Mr VJP]

There's a huge difference you're ignoring.  The people out west have a beef with the government and it's law enforcers regarding what they see as infringements on their liberty.

 

Radical Islam jihadists are attacking innocent men, women and children with the objective of causing terror and destroying our freedom and liberty.

 

You cannot, in any sane way, consider these two groups of people to be of the same mindset.  Nor can any analytical thinker classify them as the same level of threat to average, ordinary, everyday American citizens.

[The_Field_Ager]

 

 

You cannot, in any sane way, consider these two groups of people to be of the same mindset.  

 

 

As we know, liberalism is a mental disorder. 

[Doc]

It is hard to forget that just 20 years ago, a home grown, militia-spawned pair of local terrorists named Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were responsible for 168 deaths of innocent U.S. citizens going about their day's work at the office along with 19 children at a day care center. Their victims were average ordinary everyday American citizens. They had a beef with the U.S. government also and felt that their rights were being violated.

 

Yes I do consider home grown militias to be of the same mindset and the same resulting death and mayhem. Different motives, but still both with a beef against the U.S. government and both willing to accept death of innocents to avenge their perceived wronging's. Yes they both engage in terror and I don't see a lot of difference between the two in terms of their intent. They are both a blight on this earth and the world would be a better place without either groups.

[The_Field_Ager]

Having done a great deal of research into the Oklahoma incident, I long ago concluded that there was almost certainly government collusion and cover-up of damning information. So many aspects of that occurrence do not pass the smell test. This documentary brings some interesting developments to public light. We never got the full story:

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Papist

[pt0217]

Expresso,

Your comparison is disgusting. You are doing a service to the radical Islamic movement. Not with a knife to the neck of an innocent person, but with your mouth.

[The_Field_Ager]

Liberals like Expresso love Islam. They are its biggest advocates and defenders.

[pt0217]

Doc,

Please don't compare radical Islam to Tim McVeigh. His was an isolated attack. The other is a movement with billions of potential participants if Moderate Muslims don't separate themselves from this jihad.

[EspressoBuzz]

As you can see from the posts above, only one person was willing shine a light onto our homegrown terrorist, the rest attacked me or my condemnation of these American terrorist. Clearly some do not think this group that has killed 48 Americans are in fact terrorist, one even going so far as to put forth a conspiracy theory de-bunked many years ago of an attack not even mentioned by me in the original post. I only mention Islam because it has been said that Islam is the greater threat to America, but I ask you, with more deaths on US soil and state officials willing to give them aid shouldn't we be just as vigilant here as a broad?

[EspressoBuzz]

Apparently lone wolf Islamic terrorist like McVigey do not exist and of course there are no Americans who sympathize with them.

 

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/mcveighaccount.html

 

The Widening Conspiracy

There is no shortage of people in the United States who have serious beefs with the federal government.  In addition to the anti-gun control crowd, there are anti-tax fanatics, white supremacists who resent government's race and immigration policies, and a wide variety of persons who think the United States government is full of communists or "one-world-government" proponents.  

Timothy McVeigh had most of these complaints with the government, and over the next two years would find himself in the company of many who shared much of his somewhat paranoid world view. At an April 1993 gun show in Tulsa, for example, McVeigh met Andreas Strassmeir, the grandson of a founder of the Nazi party and then the head of security for Elohim City, a 400-acre compound on the Arkansas-Oklahoma border founded by a white supremacist. (There is interesting, but inconclusive, evidence suggesting that Strassmeir might have been a federal undercover operative.)  In Kingman, Arizona, McVeigh renewed his friendship with army buddy Michael Fortier, an anti-gun control protester with a passion for far-right politics.  In the fall of 1993, McVeigh and Terry Nichols made their first visit to Elohim City, a hotbed of anti-government activity--including a plot to blow up a federal building in Oklahoma City.  (For McVeigh, it would be the first of at least two, and most likely four or more visits to the compound.)

[The_Field_Ager]

 the rest attacked me or my condemnation of these American terrorist. 

 

 

lol. Nice try. What we attacked was your constant habit of attempting to diminish Islamic terror. You know, that thing we are dealing with today all over the world, and likely will be for some time to come. Tell us again the name of the Mosque you attend?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Papist

[ants]

Far right wing extremist, who would kill innocent people are scum. I get it. But With radical Islam causing so much death and suffering, world wide, why would you concentrate more on far right wing extremists ? You go back 20 years and bring up McViegh but you won't go back 15 years and include the people killed in 911 in your tally of people killed in the U.S. by Jihadists. Its always "since 911" Why? And I think the number of people killed in the U.S. by Jihadists "since 911"  is more like 90.

[Doc]

Doc,

Please don't compare radical Islam to Tim McVeigh. His was an isolated attack. The other is a movement with billions of potential participants if Moderate Muslims don't separate themselves from this jihad.

I am just telling you that those two creeps represent the lowest that America has to offer. As much as may pain you to have me coming down on your baby-killing hero, I am not one to soft soap a filthy situation of evil just to spare the feelings of those that might regard that trash as their hero. And I will say that those characters and others like them have a love of terror and killing and have more in common with the ISIS creeps than they have differences. The numbers of them does not have anything to do with my feelings against any of them. Scum is scum, regardless of where they come from or what their base motivation is. I will further say that all those that have a hero worship thing going for Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols aren't really much of anything worthwhile in my book either. Anyone who can even begin to relate to those baby killers on any level aren't really anyone that I care to converse with and pretty much nauseate me.

[EspressoBuzz]

So many people are already focused and spot on with concerns to Islamic Extremists (http://inhomelandsecurity.com/march-terror-threat-snapshot-147-homegrown-terror-cases-since-911/). What I am saying is don't overlook these guys, they have proven to be dangerous and they are here within our borders and perfectly camouflaged as Americans.

 

I did not bring up McVeigh or anything prior to 9/11.

 

Most policy makers and politicos use 9/11 as a demarcation line in American policy toward terrorism of all sorts.

 

As for the number being questioned the pages i posted lists each event and the circumstances.

Edited April 6, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[The_Field_Ager]

I am just telling you that those two creeps represent the lowest that America has to offer.

 

Doc, you know that the Feds knew an attack was imminent, right? ATF were all told not to come to work that day, just one example of the foreknowledge of the days events. Bomb units were seen in the area before the explosions. The list goes on.

 

There also seems to have been Saudi involvement. A lot of similarities to the recent Belgian airport attack. The authoriies there also knew an attack was going to happen but stood down.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Papist

[Doc]

Far right wing extremist, who would kill innocent people are scum. I get it. But With radical Islam causing so much death and suffering, world wide, why would you concentrate more on far right wing extremists ? You go back 20 years and bring up McViegh but you won't go back 15 years and include the people killed in 911 in your tally of people killed in the U.S. by Jihadists. Its always "since 911" Why? And I think the number of people killed in the U.S. by Jihadists "since 911"  is more like 90.

Now wait a minute, where the hell are you getting any of that? I am not excusing any or the far east terrorist activities as you people want to excuse our own home grown terrorists. I HATE (and yes that word is purposefully chosen) all terrorist equally. I hate the demented attitudes that would even hatch up that mindset. And I don't have a whole lot of good feelings toward the apologists of any of them. If you people want to pick and choose which evil you can excuse and which you cannot I will proudly say that I cannot. Evil is evil and I can't condone any of it.

 

Yes I went back 20 years to refresh your minds of the carnage that these militia groups are capable of because apparently a lot of you have selective memories and want to rank your evil according to place of origin. I can't do that, In my book nobody gets a free pass on terrorism. I don't keep score according to body count. That's not the way that I establish the right and the wrong of things.

[Doc]

Doc, you know that the Feds knew an attack was imminent, right? ATF were all told not to come to work that day, just one example of the foreknowledge of the days events. Bomb units were seen in the area before the explosions. The list goes on.

 

There also seems to have been Saudi involvement. A lot of similarities to the recent Belgian airport attack. The authoriies there also knew an attack was going to happen but stood down.

Absolutely none of that warrants the hero worship of McVeigh and Nichols, and it makes me sick to even hear such talk. In some of your twisted minds, because we are involved in Islamic terrorists, all home spun terrorism is excusable. I have never heard such crap. I have no idea what warped minds would even try to justify the killing of 168 innocent people and 19 children and then try to say but it's alright because look at what the jihadist are doing. My God... what gets into your minds?

[pt0217]

Going that far back to McVeigh only proves the point. He did what he did, which no one would ever defend, he was put away end of story. Using that case as a comparison could lead one to believe that radical Islam is manageable.

[pt0217]

Doc

I don't know where you read anyone worshiping McVeigh.

You're just trying to stir people up.

[The_Field_Ager]

Absolutely none of that warrants the hero worship of McVeigh and Nichols,

 

 

Who's doing that round here ?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Papist

[Doc]

Going that far back to McVeigh only proves the point. He did what he did, which no one would ever defend, he was put away end of story. Using that case as a comparison could lead one to believe that radical Islam is manageable.

That is simply ridiculous. There is no way that you could possibly in your most wildest imagination  come up with anything in this discussion that would even hint that radical Islam is manageable. Now if you want to make sensible arguments, then let's hear them, but that  line of illogic is too foolish to even respond to.

[Doc]

Doc

I don't know where you read anyone worshiping McVeigh.

You're just trying to stir people up.

No, some of your asinine statements have gotten me pretty stirred up though and I don't mind telling you so. When I start hearing statements that when discussing U.S. based militias that some how the Oklahoma City bombing is off the table. Then someone is trying to whitewash the actions that militias are capable of doing. And I am here to say that we do have domestic terrorism and they are quite effective. And those that want to stick their head in the sand and pretend that these creeps are a bunch of harmless people that like to play paintball in the woods, had better pull their heads out of the sand or wherever it is stuck and understand that we have terrorism on two fronts. Foreign and domestic. And don't be telling me that the 20 year old bombing that took place doesn't matter, because to me it does matter. We don't need people that will turn their backs on terror that exists openly here inside our borders simply because it is convenient to do so. I will never forget 911, but I also in spite of everyone's wishes will never forget Oklahoma City.

[Doc]

Who's doing that round here ?

Those that want to treat militia terror any differently than over seas terror to be exact.

[EspressoBuzz]

Let me drag this back to the original post. i posted a link to a video. In that video LaVoy speaks to the L.E. with a certain disdain, threatening a bloodbath goading officers to shoot him in the head. I get that they don't recognize the federal gov't, or laws they deem unconstitutional even if they have been in Supreme Court twice and have been upheld. But I am shocked, awed, and scared by the tone and confidence with which he spoke to the police and by the fact that there are elected officials who were trying to give them information on police actions during the occupation. I am disturbed by this, maybe i have a stricter definition of Patriot.

[pt0217]

Doc I think you misunderstood my point.

I never made any statement saying radical Islam was manageable. Matter of fact I was making a completely opposite point. Please re-read my post. I have been known to not clearly explain myself. My wife points it out to me all the time.

Edited April 6, 2016 by pt0217