adjusting d-loop position and moving rest vertical position--are they the same?

[Napping in the woods]

 I should know better than to mess around with my hunting setting up this close to the season as our new 7 month old baby girl (our first) isn't going to let me resolve this quickly, or at least to the point where I stop second guessing my self everytime I step to my shooting lane.

I decided to change to different broadheads, and, as anticipated, I opened a can of worms!

Fixed position broadheads were hitting 2-3" lower and a tad (1/2" or so) to the left of field points (same fletch). Moved rest up and a touch to the right, grouping improved by about 3/4" but placement moved high right of aiming point, as expected.  should I keep moving it until they synch up and then reset my sights?

Then my crazy brain started troubleshooting and wanted to start checking all tuning variables. I just completed a bare shaft planing test (shot a fletched group at 15 yds and bare shaft group at 15 yds, multiple times).

My bare shaft arrows entered foam target nock high and about an 1.5" below fletched set.  The handy easton guide says to lower nock point.  I have a rope d-loop with no replacement, yet.  are moving the nock point and adjusting the rest vertical position the same?

2014 Bear Method (68#, 27" DL)

340 grain, 28 inch Easton Axis Arrows (6 with blazers, 6 with NAP quick spin)

NAP Razor Broadheads 100 gr; 100 gr fieldpoints

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3

[Bowguy 1]

Why didn't you just move the pins? If the bow was shooting clean before don't mess w it. Oftentimes even a tuned bow shoots slightly off w broadheads because of the heads characteristics. Retune n sight in w broadheads. Moving your rest will affect how arrows fly from bow. Don't move the rest once set. Don't move the loop either btw. The sights adjust poi

[Bowguy 1]

Also by paper tuning you're not stating how far your doing it from or if you're checking dif distances. Moving the rest up should theoretically shoot nock low, being its high n you didn't mention rest type  it may be breaking around rest n pushing point up. 

[moog5050]

I will respectfully disagree with Bowguy.  The sights don't adjust POI, the sight is adjusted to POI, but you must have the arorws grouping first.  Any well tuned bow should be able to shoot bareshafts, field points and broadheads to the same POI.  Good enough, may be good enough for most, but my suggestion is that you line up the arrow so that it crosses midway through the berger hole with your nock (d-loop) set so that the arrow is at 90 degrees to the string or up to 1/8 inch high.  At that point,  aim at the same spot and adjust rest for centershot (FPs and BHs hitting same spot left to right).  Do this at least at 30yds but start at 20.  They should also be hitting the same poi vertically.  If not, slight adjustments to the rest up or down may be required (but they will be small).  Then when both FPs and BHs are slapping together, adjust your sight to the grouped POI. 

[Bowguy 1]

Moog you got me again, your sights are adjusted to poi. Truthfully though w the faster biws even shooting perfect through paper broadheads in my experience can shoot differently. Older bows seemed to be more on, again only in my experience, not discounting yours

[moog5050]

no doubt some BHs plane more than others Bowguy, but I do think with patience and a consistent shot, they can be tuned together even on fast bows.  I prefer the walk back tuning (with both FP and BH) to paper tuning but admit to doing both and bareshaft tuning too (which is best with the trad bows IMO).  I am also sure that I overdo it when it comes to tuning.

[dbHunterNY]

i agree with what's been said.  if you can improve your group size then move rest.  otherwise move sights to point of impact.  arrows that are square at both ends with good quality broadheads are necessary.  if you're grouping well enough then your arrows are good though. fixed blade broadheads will exaggerate any human influence you're creating at the shot.

if you move your d-loop by twisting up or down the string your peep alignment/height will be slightly off.  you should keep your rest at a position sending the arrow through the center of the rest bolt /berger button hole.  if you don't and move your nock point to tune around it, your bow won't hold on target as well.

also cam timing and sync as well as tiller can cause nock high or low issues.  check those first before moving the rest or nock point. haven't seen a bow that tunes nock low but nock point a touch high does happen, especially with single cam.

[Napping in the woods]

Thanks Gents.

 I am using a drop away rest (QAD HDX Ultra).

This spring I did the whole tuning process from paper (2-3 yds and 10 yds) all the way through walk-back broadhead tuning.  Then over the course of shooting this summer I had a timing issue develop. Got that fixed and then my groups started falling apart a couple of inches at 20yds and 6 inches plus at 30 yards.  felt liner on rest was worn out, changed that out, which helped a bit.  Knowing I had some work to do, and I wasn't happy with my BHs anway, I figured now was a good time to make the switch; I also tweaked my bitzenberger and switched to a right helical (powder spray test yields no contact).  Started all over again.  paper checked out pretty good so then went to bare shaft/fletched tests, also wanted some insight to my new BHs. then my previously mentioned issues.  From I what I surmise from above, I should leave my pins where they are for now, and continue making minute changes to my rest until the groups are at least on the same vertical plane if not the same POI, leaving my nock d-loop inplace...i think moving this is the last resort.  Can't try the leveling test because I don't have a bow vise.

Hate going to "the shop,"  it's 40 minutes away and the folks don't seem that interested since I bought my bow over a year ago now.  I learned of this lack of interest/detail the hard way and now make all of my arrows from full-length bare shafts, on my own saw, with my own fletching jig, etc.  everything is square and uniform.

Oh, I switched from 100 gr NAP Hellrazor to 100 gr. NAP Razor ; also have several NIB Thunderheads from days gone past which a I tinker with every now and again.

[dbHunterNY]

Don't need to have a bow vise and stuff. Hang a weight with a relatively thin bow hoist rope. Plenty of surrounding light. Draw and then carefully back your face off the string. Keep your bow string at full draw in line with your hanging rope. Point bow toward ceiling and down toward floor. Bubble level on your sight shouldn't drift from center.

[moog5050]

not sure what is meant by leveling test but if you mean nock height, just use a square on your arrow and string at rest to confirm that its 90 degrees or slightly above and arrow is crossing berger.  mark string on top of arrow knock and tie a nock point in there.  I also tie one below and then install the d-loop outside of the nock points.  Allows you to replace loop at same exact knock height if needed.  Maybe leveling test means something else.

[Bowguy 1]

On September 1, 2016 at 1:57 PM, moog5050 said:

not sure what is meant by leveling test but if you mean nock height, just use a square on your arrow and string at rest to confirm that its 90 degrees or slightly above and arrow is crossing berger.  mark string on top of arrow knock and tie a nock point in there.  I also tie one below and then install the d-loop outside of the nock points.  Allows you to replace loop at same exact knock height if needed.  Maybe leveling test means something else.

Just had a bud make me some strings. He put a loop on for me n paper tuned it, something I normally do myself. He actually put a nock in the normal place n tied the loop around that. Id never seen that but he instructs w me n is coaching a girl that's state champ. Another fellow instructs w us is a past state champ w multiple titles. I think he does same. I normally reset w square n have it marked. Interesting n seems to work w less potential work in the future of that string 

[phade]

At least Moog has a fallback career if that lawyering thing doesn't pan out.