Obama bans lead-based ammo on federal lands

[Curmudgeon]

Rob -

I am not going to spend much time here. I may get back to answering other's questions next week, especially if the weather stays bad. I saw the text of your response in an email notification so will toss you a few bones including the images you asked for. If you really want information on why this lead came from bullets and not the public water supply, google something like "bald eagles, bullets, lead isotopes". You'll come up with a lot of stuff like what I am going to paste in from The Raptor Center below the image. I get a little tired of spoon feeding people who claim they want to learn something.

Unfortunately, the physiology of raptors means they regurgitate solids. That means, unless an eagle, or other raptor dies very quickly, there will be no fragments. Having said that, here are photos of bullet fragments from 4 different eagles, one X-rayed with lead in situ. The X-ray came from The Raptor Center. The others from NYSDEC.

Bald eagle numbers are estimated to be about 1/3 of what they were at the time of European settlement. They are increasing. I don't know a single hunter who is also a conservationist, who believes nothing should be done about these poisoning until there is a population level threat. And, there may well be a threat of that magnitude to golden eagles in eastern NA.

If you don't want to be quoted, I suggest you don't post stuff on the internet.

Study points to spent lead from deer hunting as primary source of lead poisoning

We then conducted another 13-year (1996-2009) retrospective study of lead poisoning in bald eagles to test the hypothesis that spent lead from ammunition in the carcasses and gut piles of white-tailed deer is an important source of lead exposure. In this study, we analyzed four epidemiological parameters:

Seasonal prevalence and relationship with the onset of deer hunting season in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa

Correlation of animal recovery locations within deer-hunting zones

Lead isotope ratio analysis of metal fragments recovered from the gastrointestinal tract of lead-poisoned bald eagles and lead levels in their blood

Comparison of kidney copper concentration in lead-exposed and non-exposed eagles

The results of our 13-year retrospective study showed:

A statistically significant seasonal and geographical association (p<0.01) between the incidence of eagle poisoning and the onset of deer hunting season and hunting zones was present.

A majority of cases occurred during late fall and early winter, with a significantly higher number of poisoned bald eagles recovered from the deer hunting rifle zone

Most of the paired blood-fragment samples have a closely matched isotopic signature, thereby demonstrating that ingested lead was the source of lead found in the bloodstream.

The majority of the blood and fragment samples collected from lead-exposed eagles was within the isotope ratio from ammunition samples reported by Church et al. (2006).

The kidney copper concentration was significantly higher in lead-exposed eagles (p=0.002), implying the ingestion of fragments from copper-jacketed lead bullets.

About 75% of the lead-poisoned eagles were adult, or breeding-age, birds.

While there is conclusive evidence that spent ammunition in deer remains is a significant if not primary source of toxicity, there is direct evidence also that some cases of poisoning are due to shotgun pellets that may be embedded in small, upland game such as pheasants, squirrels, and rabbits that may be wounded and subsequently consumed by eagles.  There is also anecdotal evidence that lead residues left in the carcasses of coyotes may be yet another source.

These results strongly support the hypothesis that spent lead from ammunition is an important, if not the primary, source of lead exposure for bald eagles. Armed with these findings, we have partnered with The Wildlife Society to promote education among deer hunters and encourage voluntary adoption of non-toxic copper ammunition. The Minnesota Deer Hunter’s Association has been receptive to this approach and has published several articles on the subject in Whitetails magazine.

While there is growing understanding in the deer-hunting community as well as many anecdotal reports from hunters who have switched to non-toxic ammunition due to this five-year educational effort, the overall admission rate of lead poisoned eagles is unchanged.

Much more work is needed to effectively remove this toxin from the food source of eagles.

[airedale]

Kill all the cats, Humans can go back to living in the stone age and the bird casualty problem will be solved.

Edited March 12, 2017 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

I should stop email notifications for this thread but with you guys pulling these huge red herrings out of your pockets, I think I best keep monitoring it.

1. Cats are a non-issue for the scavengers we are discussing
2. The same for building strikes.
3. No one wants you to return to the stone age. We want you to leave the early 20th Century behind and join us in the 21st.

[Five Seasons]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 1:08 PM, airedale said:

I own and have read four books authored by Sportsman Teddy Roosevelt on hunting one of his favorite things to do.

African Game Trails, Hunting Trips Of A Ranchman, The Wilderness Hunter, Hunting Trips On The Prairie And In The Mountains.

My come away from reading those books on what President Roosevelt's response to any kind of a traditional ammo ban period, he sure as hell would have been "Rolling In His Grave"

As for it's quick repeal,  a big fist pump and a loud "BULLY"!!

because that wasn't even a thing during his day geez man. You're focusing on the specifics and not the big picture. The earth used to be flat, there was no such thing as "planets" and evolution wasn't even a concept. But guess what, research and studies educated us. Just like lead ammo.

[Five Seasons]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:07 AM, chas0218 said:

If lead is so bad then why is almost every faucet used in a facility or home still made with lead? I understand that you shouldn't be ingesting the stuff but there is no getting completely rid of it from our diets/life. Should we be more aware of it? Yes, but give me a break where are you going to draw the line?

I understand from a environmental stand point lead hurts and sometimes kills animals but most of you saying it should be banned are the same people saying we should get a choice of what deer we should be able to take and antler restrictions are the devil. You preach you want freedom of choice then say take away my freedom of choice.

still made with lead? like what lol.

I can't believe that lead being safe is even a discussion point in this thread. It's a freaking fact, not an opinion. You can argue that it's detrimental to birds of prey, but not the health impact on organic creatures.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Belo

[airedale]

I should stop email notifications for this thread but with you guys pulling these huge red herrings out of your pockets, I think I best keep monitoring it.

====================================================

 

It is all a matter of perspective Pal, you champion a hand full of eagles that possibly "MAY" get lead poisoning  but what about all the other wildlife that is dying by the trillions, the list above is only birds in the US and Canada. That is not even counting the millions upon millions of other animals that are dying every day. It is estimated in deaths by vehicle 41 million squirrels, 26 million cats, 22 million rats, 19 million possums, 15 million coons, 6 million dogs, 350 million deer and ten and tens of millions of assorted small animals and trillions of insects. remember this is just vehicles here in the US. Buildings, farming and wind turbines kill countless others.

You are right it is the 21st century and things are sure different, Casualties are unavoidable, "ingestion" of Traditional lead based ammo in the grand scheme of things is but a pin prick when it comes to actual causes of wildlife casualties! So who wants to give up their vehicle, farm raised food and electricity??

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by airedale

[airedale]

29 minutes ago, Belo said:

because that wasn't even a thing during his day geez man. You're focusing on the specifics and not the big picture. The earth used to be flat, there was no such thing as "planets" and evolution wasn't even a concept. But guess what, research and studies educated us. Just like lead ammo.

I disagree Teddy Roosevelt would not ban traditional ammo, if you read the books you would know why.

 

29 minutes ago, Belo said:

I can't believe that lead being safe is even a discussion point in this thread. It's a freaking fact, not an opinion.

Lead is not safe when not used properly, no one disputes that. Traditional lead ammo is completely safe when used properly and precautions are taken when butchering your game. to remove all contaminated meat.

[Five Seasons]

25 minutes ago, airedale said:

I disagree Teddy Roosevelt would not ban traditional ammo, if you read the books you would know why.

 

Lead is not safe when not used properly, no one disputes that. Traditional lead ammo is completely safe when used properly and precautions are taken when butchering your game. to remove all contaminated meat.

1. even if he believed falcons and eagles were dying because of it?

2. right. just like asbestos. unfortunately we cannot control wild animals and what they eat off the ground.

[airedale]

10 minutes ago, Belo said:

even if he believed falcons and eagles were dying because of it?

If it was decimating the population to extinction of course not, but that is not the case. The raptor population has grown year after year and it continues to grow by leaps and bounds.. 

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, airedale said:

If it was decimating the population to extinction of course not, but that is not the case. The raptor population has grown year after year and it continues to grow by leaps and bounds.. 

C'mon. That is on its face a false statement. Do some research. 

[airedale]

To be specific my statement was mainly pertaining to eagles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bald+eagle+population+graph&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS384US384&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxw6uc6dPSAhXFMSYKHR9ODxYQsAQIGw&biw=1280&bih=580&dpr=1.5

 

Golden Eagle populations appear to have been stable between 1966 and 2015, according to the North American Breeding Bird Survey. Partners in Flight estimates their global breeding populationto be 300,000 with 35% spending some part of the year in the U.S., 15% in Canada, and 3% in Mexico.

Golden Eagle, Life History, All About Birds - Cornell Lab of Ornithology

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

That's better.

Even though the BBS is considered one of the worst indices for raptor populations (I was a BBS surveyor for many years), no one argues that bald eagle populations are increasing. Other survey methods indicate golden eagle numbers are dropping in the west and stable in the east - http://rpi-project.org/2011/assessments.php .

More from Scientific American on take permits for eagles at wind farms - "The revised proposal cites significant expansion within many sectors of the U.S. energy industry, particularly wind energy operations in the Western states, at a time when bald eagle numbers are growing while golden eagles appear to be in decline." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/u-s-proposes-giving-wind-farms-permits-for-eagle-deaths/

This returns us to the NSSF argument that it is okay to kill eagles as long as it doesn't threaten their population, an assertion I hope all conservationist reject.

[Five Seasons]

It's sort of like global warming to me. We should be able to all agree that burning fossil fuels and air pollution aren't good. Like we can all agree that lead isn't great for any organic creature.

Now I suppose the impacts of GW and lead can be debated, but if we know there are good alternatives to them and we know that it's really the right thing to do. Why the fuss?

Heck, you really want to send a big F U to the middle east? Stop buying the only thing that keeps them relevant. Oh but the jobs Belo, all the oil jobs, all the coal jobs! Like the ever growing world hasn't had industry transitions before? railroads, steel. We move on.

[airedale]

 

1 hour ago, Curmudgeon said:

The NSSF argument that it is okay to kill eagles as long as it doesn't threaten their population.

The same way it is OK for those who enjoy, benefit and utilize Vehicles, Agriculture, Wind Turbines and Tall Buildings that kill millions upon millions upon millions of birds, animals and insects,   dwarfing the effects traditional lead ammunition had or will ever have on wildlife. 

As the old saying goes "don't be throwing stones if you live in a glass house!"

Edited March 14, 2017 by airedale

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, airedale said:

 

The same way it is OK for those who enjoy, benefit and utilize Vehicles, Agriculture, Wind Turbines and Tall Buildings that kill millions upon millions upon millions of birds, animals and insects,   dwarfing the effects traditional lead ammunition had or will ever have on wildlife. 

As the old saying goes "don't be throwing stones if you live in a glass house!"

it's simple ROI for the non-business man I can explain.

vehicles - not going away

agriculture - not going away

wind turbines - not going away

tall buildings - not going away

steel shot to replace lead? why not.

there is no ROI on your 4 examples that make sense. There is pretty simple ROI for lead shot. Too many people just hate change. Heck I shoot hevi turkey loads because it actually performs better!

[airedale]

So because those methods of killing are not going away it is OK for those animals to die, Running over 350,000 Deer a year is no problem but a couple of Eagles that might possibly eat some lead fragments is a big enough tragedy to ban traditional ammo and screw millions of shooters and hunters.  To me killing is killing Period! Keep on deflecting that is what you people are good at.

 

Al

Edited March 14, 2017 by airedale

[airedale]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

steel shot to replace lead? why not.

This has already been discussed if you will take the time to open the link Lead in ammunition that was posted you will educate yourself. But for starters briefly there are millions of shotguns whose barrels are not proofed for steel especially older doubles, they can be ruined by firing steel. Read the disclaimer on a box of factory steel shot.

 

Al

Edited March 14, 2017 by airedale

[Five Seasons]

On 3/14/2017 at 1:49 PM, airedale said:

So because those methods of killing are not going away it is OK for those animals to die, Running over 350,000 Deer a year is no problem but a couple of Eagles that might possibly eat some lead fragments is a big enough tragedy to ban traditional ammo and screw millions of shooters and hunters.  To me killing is killing Period! Keep on deflecting that is what you people are good at.

 

Al

 

ROI.

[Rattler]

If that means Return On Investment, look at where lead ammo has been banned.  The ROI has turned out to be ZERO.

 

[gjs4]

So why are all the bridges in NY painted with lead paint?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Rattler]

It lasts longer