Pistol becomes a Rifle?

[bubba]

Thank you for visiting ATF's Website. As stated on our site, generally, we do not answer technical questions via e-mail, but I contacted our Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) and was advised the following:

"If you have a new Thompson Center Contender frame that has never been made into a rifle, then the frame is neither a pistol nor a rifle frame. At that point, the frame may be legally manufactured into either a pistol or a rifle. If at any time the frame was made into a rifle, the following procedures must be followed:

As you may be aware, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a), defines the term "firearm" to include the following:

...(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921); and ( a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the...[u.S. Attorney General]...finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

Certain categories of firearms are subject to registration and tax provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53. As defined in the NFA, Section 5845(a)(4), the term "firearm" means, "a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length." It is unlawful for a person to make or possess such a firearm that is not registered to such person in accordance with the provisions of the NFA.

Making a Thompson Contender rifle into a handgun having an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length would constitute the making of a weapon from a rifle and, therefore, production of a "firearm" as defined in the NFA. In order for you to make a single shot handgun from a Thompson Contender rifle frame, you need to submit a completed ATF Form 1 - Application to Make and Register a Firearm with the National Firearms Act Branch (NFA), 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405. The application must include a set of your fingerprints, your photograph, $200.00, and you must have the local chief law enforcement official certify that he/she has no information that you will use the firearm for unlawful purposes and that the making and possession of the firearm is not in violation of State law. You must also answer the questions on the form about being a prohibited person. Upon confirmation of registration of the weapon with NFA, you may then make a single shot handgun using a Thompson Center Contender rifle receiver.

Also, we advise that you contact local authorities to determine if there are any State laws or local ordinances affecting this conversion.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive."

I found this on a website

[bubba]

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled „rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845©. The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845©. Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of „firearm‰ in 26 U.S.C.

I DO NOT WANT TO DRAG THIS OUT BUT ERE IS THE KICKER. THOMPSON CENTER CAN NOT AND DOES NOT SELL A NEW FRAME WITH BOTH STOCKS. IF YOU DID NOT BUY THE GUN FROM THEM THAT WAY IT CAN NOT BE CONVERTED. IF YOU BUY THE STOCKS SEPARATELY IT CAN NOT BE DONE. WITHOUT FILLING OUT PAPERS AND PAYING 200 DOLLARS. AGAIN THIS IS WHY WHEN YOU GO TO A DEALER AND BUY A TC FRAME YOU HAVE TO SPECIFY IF YOU WANT IT SET UP FOR RIFLE OR HANDGUN. YOU CAN NOT LEGALLY BUY ONE WITH BOTH SETS OF STOCKS SO THE ABOVE PART I COPIED FROM WNY REPLY SAYS IF THEY CAME IN A PACKAGE TOGETHER. YEARS AGO WHEN THE CONTENDER FIRST CAME OUT YOU COULD. THEN WITH ALL THE COURT STUFF TC AGREED TO NOT SELL THEM AS A KIT ANY LONGER SO YOU CAN NOT JUST SWITCH THEM OUT.

Edited February 23, 2012 by bubba

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think it might be important to look at the information in a chronological order. The most recent information I have seen is the determination that the ATF put out there in the July 2011 posting. Bubba. I know the one you just posted came offf the website but it was also rquoted in articles dating back prior to July 2011. Is that info then older than the July 2011 determination?

Freakig Govt!! why not just answer a simple feaking question with a simple freaking answer!!

[WNYBuckHunter]

And heres the answer from NY, much more to the point than ATF.

"NY has no problem with changing the configuration of the various Thompson models as long as they are never assembled in a prohibited fashion (short barreled rifle or shotgun, or unregistered pistol).

James E. Sherman

Sergeant

New York State Police

Pistol Permit Bureau

Phone: (518) 464-7120"

Conclusion, its 100% LEGAL.

BTW Bubba, you can buy a bare frame, with no stocks or barrels and set it up any way you want. Sorry, but you are misinformed on this subject.

What they are saying, in essence, is the same thing NY is saying, you cant assemble them as a short barreled rifle (pistol barrel with rifle stock).

[Culvercreek hunt club]

That seems to be consistwent with the July determination of the ATF

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yep.

[bubba]

you feel free to do what you want to and think is legal. I plan to error to the side of caution. You can buy a used frame and do whatever you please, even though it s designated at the factory as pistol or long gun. . YOU CAN NOT BUY a brand new frame without a set of stocks and you can not get both sets with a new frame. I hope you do not end up in prison with a roomie named bubba lol or worse yet someone else who follows this advice does. How in the world does ny state interpretation of the law supercede atf? I guess we have to agree to disagree, but believe me when I say I hope you do not get in trouble with this. If I am wrong I am wrong and the worst I did was purchase an extra frame. . But if I am right, I would prefer to buy legally and do legally as the law states. Bubba out.

Edited February 23, 2012 by bubba

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Bubba. not bustin balls. Do yo uhave any idea when the info yu posted from a web site was authored? The July ATF seems pretty clear. Was the web site after July?

[bubba]

My information came directly from an attorney friend I have who researched it advised me on this. I plan to follow his advice.

[Santamour123]

I believe everyone is looking in the wrong direction. The illegal part is that you can not alter the class a weapon is. The laws does not say anything about a gun that is both.

[Dinsdale]

And heres the answer from NY, much more to the point than ATF.

"NY has no problem with changing the configuration of the various Thompson models as long as they are never assembled in a prohibited fashion (short barreled rifle or shotgun, or unregistered pistol).

James E. Sherman

Sergeant

New York State Police

Pistol Permit Bureau

Phone: (518) 464-7120"

Conclusion, its 100% LEGAL.

BTW Bubba, you can buy a bare frame, with no stocks or barrels and set it up any way you want. Sorry, but you are misinformed on this subject.

What they are saying, in essence, is the same thing NY is saying, you cant assemble them as a short barreled rifle (pistol barrel with rifle stock).

How do you plan on registering the pistol configeration IF you started as a rifle?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How do you plan on registering the pistol configeration IF you started as a rifle?

Monroe County told me they would put it on no problem. They have done them before and have a special listing that designates them as various calibers. I have heard other places require listing each caliber seperately.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How do you plan on registering the pistol configeration IF you started as a rifle?

Rifles arent registered. I will use the serial on the frame just like I had my last one on my permit. Livingston County makes you add each pistol barrel caliber onto the permit with the same frame serial number.

I will NEVER assemble the gun with the pistol frame and rifle stock, as the law states.

[WNYBuckHunter]

you feel free to do what you want to and think is legal. I plan to error to the side of caution. You can buy a used frame and do whatever you please, even though it s designated at the factory as pistol or long gun. . YOU CAN NOT BUY a brand new frame without a set of stocks and you can not get both sets with a new frame. I hope you do not end up in prison with a roomie named bubba lol or worse yet someone else who follows this advice does. How in the world does ny state interpretation of the law supercede atf? I guess we have to agree to disagree, but believe me when I say I hope you do not get in trouble with this. If I am wrong I am wrong and the worst I did was purchase an extra frame. . But if I am right, I would prefer to buy legally and do legally as the law states. Bubba out.

Its not what I THINK is legal or heresay I got from someone else. I got the info direct from both horses mouths. I have also gotten the same exact answer from multiple FFLs. You choose to believe what you want, I honestly dont care.

[Dinsdale]

Rifles arent registered. I will use the serial on the frame just like I had my last one on my permit. Livingston County makes you add each pistol barrel caliber onto the permit with the same frame serial number.

I will NEVER assemble the gun with the pistol frame and rifle stock, as the law states.

Gotcha.....

I don't have a TC product but a similar German gun.......I will see if they can comprehend its the same thing at the office here in Dutchess, but a different brand.

Thanks for the continued effort to post reliable current information.

[bubba]

I truly do not care either. As I said we can either agree to disagree or you can throw your tude around. either way I am good. Just do me one favor and call a local ffl and ask about ordering a new frame without a set of stocks.

[Dinsdale]

I truly do not care either. As I said we can either agree to disagree or you can throw your tude around. either way I am good. Just do me one favor and call a local ffl and ask about ordering a new frame without a set of stocks.

Read post #64...." I have also gotten the same exact answer from multiple FFLs"

By asking you seem to care quite a bit.

Just sayin'.

[bubba]

you are right. I guess I will drop it take care.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Honestly Bubba, I have not been throwing any "tude" around on this subject. Just been posting the facts as they have been presented to me. I'm done with this one, as I am satisfied with the information. If I was told by ATF and/or NY that it was not legal to do, I'd be starting to think about another Encore frame. Now, I'm just thinking about barrels.

Dinsale, you're welcome. I'm too am glad to have the info, it's just too bad it took so much effort to get the answer to what is a fairly simple question lol. Gotta love the government.