Doc

Generally, the older I get, the later I get on stand.....lol. During bow season, if I can time it exactly right, I will get on my stand a few minutes before legal shooting time. I get a quieter entrance, and do not have deer trying to walk over me prior to when I can shoot. That's important because I use ground stands. Opening day of gun, I have a spot that generally gets me at least a doe opening morning and quite frequently a buck. It is one of those escape routes that deer use when the guys come up the hill from the state parking lot. Its about as close to being a guaranteed spot as I have ever seen. I generally am on stand there at least an hour before the first sign of light, armed with a flashlight to alert approaching hunters that I am there. After opening day, I become a still-hunter and whenever I happen to naturally wake up, that starts my day.

You want us to read minds and establish motives. We do not have enough information to establish the motives behind why they chose to put the deer population management on only the backs of the bowhunters and muzzleloaders. So there is no "yes" or "no" answer. I'm not sure why that is such a hard concept for you to understand. You may not like that answer, because it doesn't validate your assumptions, but really that is the answer. No hate card, just my opinion. So try to control yourself when I offer the opinion that you asked for.

I already have. Try to pay attention and keep up. Repeating one more time for those that are having trouble understanding, the real options for cutting deer populations lie in the more efficient gun season, if the population cuts really are the goal. Pretty simple concept actually.

I think I heard Hurst say that this doe only archery experiment where bowhunters are mandated to manage the deer population, will go for two years and then the next phase of an early muzzleloader season will be implemented when bowhunters fail to satisfy the DEC with proper deer population numbers. So we have two years before a lot of those items happen. They are using the deer population to drive all the items on their wish-list that they have wanted for years.

It does seem like there I a whole lot of thought being given these days in ways to establish non-hunting ways of controlling wildlife populations. We have always felt very secure in the thought that hunting is needed to reliably control populations of various species. But now it seems that hunters are not up to the task. Hunter numbers are slipping. Hunter enthusiasm and effort may also be slipping and now we have documentation that some areas are not being controlled. And so it has occurred to me that society is now looking at hunting as a necessary evil to be put up with only until an acceptable alternative is found. There seems to be a lot of people working on these alternative ways, and perhaps it is just a matter of time before they find, or think they have found, a population management technique that works better than hunters. Is the tolerance and even protection of coyotes part of this? Is this crazy talk about introducing mountain lions and wolves part of this as well? I have heard that the efficiency of these critters is pretty high, particularly when it comes to cervids. Maybe they are more efficient than we hunters are.

Pay attention to all that crap. You might just be able to open up your mind and understand what is likely happening right in front of your eyes or at least get a new perspective on what is happening. I know that is inconvenient, but don't be so darned eager to drink that DEC kool-aid that you refuse to examine other alternative opinions.

But apparently from some of the comments that I have read on this thread, that is a bowhunter phenomenon only. Gun hunters don't have that affliction at all .... lol. I guess that must be what the DEC believes, and we bowhunters will be flogged until we learn the proper hunting motivations and behavior.

Your assumption attempts to make sense of an idiotic, illogical plan. You are pretending to understand their motives with that assumption. I can take that same information in the light of their long-standing desire to hand over parts of bow season to muzzleloaders, and come up with other scenarios and motives for them placing the burden of herd population management on the backs of archers only. I have little respect remaining for the DEC's intellect, but I believe there reasons for placing the impossible task on bowhunters is to justify the implementation of deer hunting with firearms inside of bow seasons by setting bowhunters up for logical failure. And yes that in their minds will cause more does to be taken in what used to be bow season. The real difference in our two assumptions is that you believe that there really is something bowhunters can do about it. I am facing up to the more likely reality that they have no intention of declaring us successful. They want that muzzleloading season in the bowhunting time slot ..... period, and you can kill all the does you want, and they will declare your failure. We differ in assumed motives and outcomes. Are you wrong? Only time will tell.

No, I didn't see one .... lol. But off in the future??? .... Who knows. According to the latest NYON issue, it appears that there is a group in our state called Protect the Adirondacks who were very disappointed that the DEC's draft wildlife action plan did not include a study of possible re-introduction of wolves and panthers. Now there is something that we need in the state ... wolves and cougars. Hopefully some of these groups like The Cougar Rewilding Foundation, never get any traction here in NYS, but with the current strange DEC notions on deer population management, who knows what kinds of weird things they might be starting to favor as deer herd population control.....lol.

You talk like there are options here ..... ha-ha. We don't even know if the DEC targets are achievable. They are not public. All I know is that bowhunters will never be able to manage deer populations on their own regardless of what the DEC threatens. And with built in failure as the only possible outcome, the DEC gets their early muzzleloader season that they tried so hard to insert a decade ago. Coincidence??? .... I think not. I know that such a devious plan gives them guys a whole lot more credit that they probably deserve, but it does make one wonder if there really is any way that we can stave off the arrival of firearms deer hunting in the bow season. I think not!

No it is not obvious as to what they feel. Their stated goal is to reduce the burdensome deer herd in that cluster of WMUs. That is all they have said, the rest is simply imaginings of what you wish they had said. Now if you wish to engage in dreamland imagining, how about we speculate that maybe they think it is a mistake to reserve so much season for a weapon that is not as efficient as guns? Maybe they would like bow season to go away so they could use guns to whack the herd as they see fit. Maybe they have discovered a way to do that and without any established goals stated, they can simply begin by moving muzzleloaders into the bow seasons. and perhaps take things from there. Maybe this is what they have planned and no matter what we do, it is just a calculated foregone conclusion as to how it will come out. See how easy it is to speculate? We can all do it. But until some actual proof or official public statements come out, the fact is that we have to take them at their word ..... which is that they have too many deer and this is their whacked-out way of handling it. Judge it for what it is, not what you imagine it to be.

Heck, if they are serious about whacking the hell out of the does, drop the DMP requirement completely. Open season on does for all seasons ..... period. How serious is this over population problem anyway? You want them wiped out, simply remove all impediments to doing so. And buy the way, eliminate the charge for tag applications in those WMUs also. We can knock down that herd real quick, and it doesn't require limiting anybody. There are so many ways to whack on the herd, that it is hard to believe that population management has to be put solely on the backs of the smallest group of hunters alone. Believe me, there is more to all of this nonsense than simply a need for population control.

I am taking them (DEC) at their word. They have said nothing about reforming bowhunters. In fact they have not even tried to explain why they feel that bowhunters should shoulder the management of doe populations by themselves. All they have officially and publicly talked about is a cluster of WMUs that are in extreme danger of environmental catastrophe because of the horrible numbers of deer. If they really mean this, then I am assuming that the season choice to apply these special programs would be those that have the highest possibility of success. To me that seems logical. Either they feel it is necessary to cut the herd or not. Never mind this imagined, unstated nonsense about getting bowhunters to harvest more of this or more of that. That is simply your speculation based on absolutely nothing they have said. It is only about reducing deer numbers (so they have said). Their public statements are all anyone has to go on, not some thoughts about what you wish they had said.

I reserve still hunting for gun season, but even so, I have found myself in shooting situations on my way to the stand more than just a few times. This often forces some strange requirements for shooting stances that you ought to be at least familiar with. Lowering my profile by kneeling is one of the techniques that I use when caught unprepared in one of those unplanned situations. So, that is one of my practice shots that I try to stir into my practice sessions. I also try to get behind something. That usually is a large tree or blowdown. That brings up another weird stance that needs to have some practice. The idea of standing behind a tree and leaning out for bow clearance. That really messes up all those hours of perfect shooting stance practice. So it doesn't hurt to mix in a few of those kinds of practice shots just to see what happens. And of course, when you are caught cold and a shooting opportunity comes that is not always ideal, you might find yourself having to crouch slightly to get under an obstruction. I try to throw some of those un-natural stances to know just what kinds of problems they involve.

Put yourself in the seat of a DEC decision-maker. You have decided that a dire situation is developing in certain WMUs. The herd is crazy out-of-control. It needs some emergency action to get it all back under control. You know the only way to do that is to take a significant number of does out of the herd. Now if you really believe all that, what season would you use to do that kind of drastic doe reduction? My thought is that if you were truthfully convinced that dire actions need to be used, I would be applying doe only days during some of the days of the most effective season that is likely to have the most significant effect. I have a regular gun season available for use that has more participants involved.Those more participants have demonstrated that they are much more efficient at getting the job done and likely are the only ones who really can. Seems pretty obvious where I would be putting the "doe only" days. Of course I would only do that if I happened to honestly believe the seriousness of the situation that I was portraying and that my only agenda was to bring down the herd size. Can anyone explain why would I be wrong with that decision?

Just let us know who the members are that are forcing you to poke that link to this thread and maybe we can convince them to stop doing that. I hate to see anybody forced to access a topic that they really don't want to see.

That poison ivy can be some pretty devious stuff. For years, I had no reaction to it. As a kid I used to walk barefoot through it and had great fun showing off that fact to anyone that was interested, that I was completely immune. Then about a decade ago, I was hacking on the stuff clearing it out of a tree, and I came up with a couple of little blistered that itched like crazy. Not nice, but no big deal. Last year I got nailed pretty darn good to the point where I went to the dermatologist. Now I pay attention when I see it .... lol. So immunity apparently is not necessarily for always.

In most cases (not all), the word "hate" might be a bit strong. But anyone who has not spotted the bias and language of animosity here and there, either hasn't been following the thread or simply doesn't want to see it, or is part of it.

I practice sitting and standing and kneeling. However, I seem to get better consistency and back tension when standing. So when in my ground blinds, if I believe I can get into a standing position without a whole lot of movement and commotion, I will try to stand. As has already been mentioned, it is impossible for me to shoot to my right when sitting, so that will force me to stand or kneel. But if I have a good shot at 20 yards, and I can get into the traditional standing shooting stance, I'm a real happy hunter. It is my most confident shooting stance.

Actually, anybody who has been following this thread and doesn't see the gun hunter vs. bowhunter animosity showing through, can't be really paying attention. It has nothing to do with complexes, but a simple honest reaction to some of the comments on this thread. Apparently I am not the only one picking up on that. The idea of everyone going out hunting and having a good time is an honorable thought, but bowhunters are not the only ones who should be thinking that way.

A lot of vines are destructive, but I have seen wild grape actually bend mature trees over and kill them. They can get huge.

One thing that this thread has really brought to light is just how much animosity there really is from gun hunters toward bow hunters. I always suspected that it was a much bigger problem than is generally acknowledged, but the comments on this thread plus a lot of other sources, is showing an increasing divide in the hunting community based on the use of a bow.

Yeah, wild mushrooms scare me to death. I don't know one from the other, and having read about an entire family that thought they knew edible mushrooms from poisonous ones (but didn't), I am not ready to let some picture in a book make the decision for me either. Too many look-alikes out there. I love mushrooms on my steaks, but I want those mushrooms to come from some bonafide supplier that will guarantee that he's not feeding me poison.....lol.

OK, if we are all done bashing hunters and engaging in all the self-flagellation, let me be the first to tell you that attitudes have not gotten worse. In fact not that many decades ago, you would never have heard any hunters even having these kinds of conversations. For some reason, we seem to think that the attitudes of hunters have suddenly shifted from the great selfless benefactors of wildlife who hunted only to make the world of nature a lovely balanced place of harmony, to some kind of menace of the planet bent on the wanton eradication of all of wildlife. Well, that's a nice rose-colored vision of the hunters of the past, but no, there has not been some strain of evil that has infected all of the modern hunters. Regardless of the perverse pleasures we seem to get out of running down the hunting mentality of today, we need to occasionally stop beating ourselves to recognize that the widespread concern for ethics and fair chase, and the concepts of individual herd enhancement and management are relatively recent mind-sets that the hunters of the past never really bothered to engage in. So, let's stop explaining to the antis or any non-hunter how we understand and appreciate their efforts to impugn hunting and its participants and now want to help that effort along. Lets take a little credit where credit is due and appreciate our contributions to conservation and even the fact that we are discussing what is good for ecology and wildlife management. The very fact that we are discussing an over-abundance of deer kind of shows that we are not the scourge of wildlife that we seem to now enjoy portraying ourselves as.

And of course there are always those that get absolutely giddy about somebody else being screwed. Oh and by the way, I am looking at those special cross-hatched areas and the way I see it bowhunters and muzzleloaders are the only ones affected. I don't see any changes to the gun season where some real impact to the problem could be seen. So I haven't a clue what you are talking about as far as it being "effective across all seasons in the southern zone".