Doc

Wow! that's crazy. I never heard of a place that outlawed treestands. Well anyway, It's not the end of the world. Deer can be hunted from the ground. It's a little tougher, but I do it all the time as do a jillion other people. There are some drawbacks, but there's an awful lot of hunters that take an awful lot of deer from groundstands every year. Doc

Not on a regular basis anymore. I will go back and try a shot or two from that distance occasionally just for the heck of it. Back when I was competing on NFAA field archery courses, The max shot was 80 yards. That was fun. What is it on the FITA shoots? ...... Something like 100 meters? Now that is some long distance shooting. Doc

I'm not advocating lawlessness, but I'm sure that excessive irresponsible gouging of sportsmen will probably be met by more people hunting and fishing without any license at all. That is for those that continue to hunt and fish. Others may simply say, "that's enough" and accelerate the already existing exodus from those activities. Either way, it can turn out to start something that nobody really wants. Doc

You bet! That discussion has been going on hot and heavy around the county for a long time, and I have yet to see one shred of actual data. I did find a study sponsored by PA that concluded that the lethal distance of shotguns is farther than rifles (mostly because the projectile tends to hold together longer after impacting trees, brush, etc. But some of that was a bit hard to swallow and some of the assumptions that they used may or may not have represented real hunting conditions. I kind of thought somebody would come up with something that simply said that in areas where rifles are used, there is no difference in accident rate per capita than in shotgun only areas. Hey, maybe nobody has ever pulled those kinds of statistics together. However, I found that there were no shortages of assumptions and theories. I may have been the only one with an "I don't know" opinion ..... lol. Doc

Yep sure is, the DEC compiles a list every year. In fact, as I recall meatsticks posted this information on the old empire forum. You guys sure forget easy, that is, all the info & links meatsticks posted. Every hunted ed instructor alos has the list. So I guess you can simply recall the links to that info that meatsticks supplied. Or maybe you can quote the info that he posted. I will admit that I have forgotten all that and since that forum is gone, so are the links. Since you are not one of the guys who "forget easy", maybe you could post a link to one of those sources. I'd appreciate it. Doc

Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that the way to get the biggest bang for your buck is to work through an organization. Chances are pretty good that those organizations will be asking members to write letters and emails in addition to their own behind the scenes negotiations. That is the way to not only get attention, but actually demand attention. One lone guy out there writing a letter that may or may not be focused with anyone else's is definitely not going to get any attention and it is totally naive to think that it will. Doc

Claiming that a crossbow is the weapon of choice for poachers is a weapon of choice for poachers might be a slam against poachers. Do you have a problem with that? And, as far as the insinuations, I would like to see something a bit more definitive. I suspect that you are confusing comments on this forum with statements and positions of NYB. Try to keep those sorted out. Quote: "Maybe its because I see myself as a hunter/sportsman first and a bow or gun hunter second. I am not an elitist in any regard, and I would much rather see individuals be given a choice in what weapon to use in the designated season. I just happen to believe that crossbows are appropriate for use in archery season for many reasons, but the biggest one being, they are archery equipment." That's all very nice, but I believe that in order to be a hunter/sportsman does not mean that you have to compromise on the definition of bowhunting. I also believe that that over-used word "elitist" is not very descriptive of those that do not believe the crossbow is appropriate in bowseasons. I know you guys think there is something clever about tossing that word around, but it certainly is inappropriate in this use. But, what the heck, if it makes you feel better, go ahead. You certainly have a right to be for crossbows as much as I or the NYB has a right to believe they are inappropriate for bow seasons. The question for you is whether that issue is adequate reason to trash the only New York bowhunting organization and withold your support (and I guess you do). If you think that that single issue negates all the good things that they have done and will do in the future on your behalf, then I guess you have no choice but to withold your membership and support. I think that's silly, but let's face it you have nothing to lose with that attitude. The NYB will continue to go on working to get bowhunting benefits on your behalf, and it won't cost you a dime. A pretty good deal indeed for those that want to play the game that way. Doc

Rich- Once again the attitude is being pushed that if you are to be a team player, you need to roll over and give up all beliefs that you might have about what belongs in these special seasons and what doesn't. Unless you bend over and tear down all definitions of what are appropriate weapons, you are being devisive and combative. Basically you are saying that there should be no limitations and if anyone proposes them, they are evil people working against the sport of hunting. Those that want to put any limitations on weapons in these special seasons are elitists. That's a nice little term and just one more term to add to the long list of name-calling that people use when they have run out of polite arguments. Well, In the most polite way possible, I would just like to say, "That is a crock". let's just suppose that pistol shooters proposed being allowed into muzzleloading season (since that has been brought up). Do you suppose that the muzzleloaders would simply sit back and say "ok fellas come on in, and bring those guys with the single shot shotguns with you". Probably not. Most likely they would fight like hell. And then you would come along preaching about how we should all get along and stop bickering and how devisive it is that the muzzleloaders are being so darn selfish and elitist. It is appropriate that you mentioned the old compound bow controversy. I was around back in those days. I was basically saying the same things that crossbow proponents are saying today. I remember those old codgers griping about the precedents that were being set by letting this contraption into bow seasons. Isn't it amazing how right they were. Isn't it the most often used argument for now cramming crossbows into bowseason. How many times have we heard the bogus comparisons of compounds to crossbows. Even though it is an inappropriate precedent, it is being used as a precedent none the less. So today with a new layer of bowhunting definition being torn down, one has to wonder just what new additions will the crossbow be used as a precedent for? Layer by layer, bowhunting definitions continue to be torn down. Each time the whole idea of a special season required for bowhunting gets a little more difficult to justify. Where will it all end. You tell me. No one seems to be willing to draw a line in the sand. Most likely that line will never be drawn. So, let's just continue bastardizing the sport. Today we are looking at entering the "missing link" ..... half bow half gun. Which half will take over in the next generation of new entries based on the precedents of the old? Let's blur the lines of what bowhunting is. Let's just see how many different things we can push into that season. I have heard primitive muzzleloaders questioning why they can't be a part of bow seasons. Kind of a primitive weapons season. Well, it's getting harder and harder to say they can't. lets not be devisive, exclusionary, elitists (hope I haven't left out any of the favorite name-calling terms ..... lol), and just roll over for the whole deal at once and then we won't be guilty of bickering and causing problems in the sporting community. Doc

You have a very naive and overly optomistic view on the power of individual letters. We don't have lobbyist simply because people want to throw away money. And NYB just like NRA and any other sportsmen's organization is a lobbying group. So while it may be a feel-good activity to write letters and such, the real influence is wielded by organized groups of people and of course lobbyists with financial influence. Don't get me wrong, I too write plenty of letters and more recently freely use the email to forward my thoughts and concerns to lawmakers and other movers and shakers within the government, but I have to tell you that the results have been a bit disappointing. Some have actually been a bit comical and have ranged from answers regarding totally irrelevant and unconnected issues to some rather "in your face" replies basically saying, "not interested". Further I have sent in some letters that offered opinions that differed with the NYB and received a reply that was exactly the same as those that sent in letters agreeing with the NYB position received. So I think that politicians have learned that constituent opinion is not really all that important to their re-election campaigns. The only time there is a significant difference to that is when you happen to be writing in concert with a vast majority or your opinion happens to agree with other financial interests that the politician values. Yes that seems like a cynical look at the world of politics but unfortunately it represent the real world. So one man standing alone writing his little letters may feel real good, but he is not nearly as significant as he would be if he was part of a larger block of people with the same opinion. I hate to tell you, but it is just a fact of life. I would suppose that that is why you spend the money to be a member of the NRA. My guess is that you really do understand the value of organization. It just doesn't happen to be convenient to admit that belief when it comes to the NYB vs. your crossbow campaign. And you still will not admit that the NYB has and does speak for you and on your behalf even though I have proven it to you. That's funny. No, that's stubborn....lol. But you have no problem taking advantage of those things that they have fought to win for you. And then bad-mouthing them to boot. Well, what the heck, I guess there simply are some people like that. That's what makes the world go around. Doc

Agreed but I do find it a pain to be limited to shooting only when the quiver is off. Granted while on stand it is no problem. But I have had occasion to run into a deer while walking to or from my stand and then had to go through all the movement of trying to remove the quiver. Talk about awkward. As far as the extra weight, I really don't mind a little extra weight on my bow. It does help steady the arm a bit. Kind of like a "bull-barrel on a pistol". I don't know, I never weighed my quiver to see just how much it actually weighs. I think the real problem would be where to put it....lol. Doc

I would guess that that is debateable, but I guess I don't feel equipped to prove that one way or another. The Stingers are what I am using right now, but I didn't get a chance to give them a real life test last season on hide, flesh and bone. However there is nothing about them that would suggest that there should be any problem there. They do seem to be pretty easy to tune. That a biggie with me. Doc

That was the first "quality" recurve that I ever bought. It broke my heart to see that split in the glass. I put a bi strip of tape on it that said "broken limb - do not use", and put it down at the road for trash pick-up. That just didn't seem like a fitting end to a bow that had served me so well. Doc

I forgot to address this crock that you laid out there with no explaination. I guess you are still talking about the crossbow issue. First of all, there has been no attack on sportsmen. There is a well publicized stance against adding crossbows into bow seasons. This is a stance based on the fact that NYB believes that crossbows are inappropriate weapons for an archery season. Wether or not you agree, the NYB has the right to reach that opinion. That's not an attack on anybody. You might call it an attack on crossbows .....lol. If you're talking about muzzleloaders, I think you have things a bit reversed. It was the Muzzleloaders who were the aggressors in that issue. And, in fact if that is your allegation, you are a bit out of date since the NYB (much to my dismay) has been working in cooperation with the NYMLA on a recent proposal create early season opportunities for primitive muzzleloaders. That doesn't sound too much like an organization that is out attacking other sportsmen. So my view of your allegations is that they are just some more of the continuing baseless lashing out at the NYB, an attitude that I find totally confusing coming from any bowhunter. Doc

By the way, speaking of effectiveness, you might want to take note of the fact that the legislation as passed did indeed get changed to exclude crossbows from the bowhunting seasons. You don't suppose that that happened just by accident do you? I don't care how small the organization is, they are the only ones who have the lobbying mechanism in place. They are the ones who fight for all the goodies that you so eagerly take advantage of. Go back and review that list of NYB accomplishments that I posted. How many of those did you write letters about? How much of ANY of that can you individually take credit for? Yes, by golly those people did speak for you and all bowhunters, and through a forum that actually has some meaning and effect, (not some individual lone e-mail). And yes you and all the NYS bowhunters have been very quick to take advantage of those things that they spoke up for on your behalf. Doc

So what's the story ...... Did everybody have a 50# Bear Kodiak recurve? I had one of those too, and it seems as though everytime I hear anybody talking about recurves, that's the one that they mention they had (or have). I finally spotted a fairly bad split in my upper limb and had to toss mine. I thought I was going to cry. I never had a bow that I had gotten so completely attached to. Doc

I can't think of a worse fate than being an active outdoors person who winds up bound to a wheelchair because of a fall. Stop for a minute and try to imagine such a thing. Then try to imagine that such a fate could have been prevented. How would that feel? Doc

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change. Doc

It would be interesting to see if someone could invent some sort of opposing stabilzer to offset the torqing of the bow quiver. Doc

I really don't understand the science behind a serrated blade. What exactly are they trying to accomplish? Doc

On the seventh one, I got smart and started using separate bullseyes. I can't afford that kind of destruction. Doc

I was referring to your comment on the numbers of bowhunters that are actual members of NYB and why that is supposed to indicate that they have to right to say that they represent NYS bowhunters ..... Specifically the line that says,"The biggest complaint I have with NYB is their claim to represent ALL bowhunters in NY while they maintain a membership of what, 2 or 3 thousand? Thats not even a drop in the bucket, so how can they make those claims, or should I say, why shouldnt they be called out on it?" As I have indicated, the NRA does this with gun owners all the time, and rightfully so. If you have other nits with them such as a crossbow support requirement that is something other than the point you made about the numbers. Frankly I think there is always something that people can use as an excuse not to become organized. I have heard that kind of nonsense used against the NRA. a single issue of disagreement comes up and they are ready to dump the whole organization. That's a pretty tough standard for any organization to measure up against. There is plenty about the NRA that I could find fault with and stomp my feet and dump my whole membership. That would be stupid, but I could do it ....... but I don't. I fully understand that the little petty beef here and there that I may have on some comparatively insignificant issues is not worth dumping an organized approach to all of the things that I really have in common in terms of safeguarding those things that I hold important. One thing I have noticed is that nobody has addressed the reply that I posted that detailed the accomplishments and activities of the NYB. I know it is a bit inconvenient and doesn't fit in well with the "single issue" objection to the NYB, but it really should kind of put things into perspective for those that would take a single issue and use that as a rallying cry against the whole organization. It might serve you well to go back and review that list and see how your crossbow issue stands up against all that the NYB has done. Doc

Actually it looks like a pretty darn good head if they took those stupid serrations off. I am a big believer in a cut-on-contact head. I also like the idea of bleeder blades. It also looks pretty darn strong. Doc

I have to take my quiver off when I am on stand. It just doesn't shoot the same with it on. In fact I get an awful lot of torque when the loaded quiver is attached to the bow. i have tried other styles of quivers such as hip quivers and was never satisfied with the ability to keep the arrows secured when going through the brush. So I always keep coming back to bow quivers. But unfortunately it does have to come off to make a shot. Doc

What percent of the total gun owners across the U.S. belong to the NRA? Do we try to discredit the NRA because the overwhelming majority of gun owners are merely wallflowers who prefer to reap the benefits of the NRA influence without the committment of membership? Pretty much most of us don't. I'm not sure why we think we should apply a different standard to bowhunting organizations. You're darned right the NYB speaks for bowhunters just as much as the NRA speaks for gun owners and until some other organization comes along who is willing to stand up for bowhunters rights and issues, I will continue to recognize them as the voice of the NYS bowhunter. Yes we have those that take some kind of weird pride in standing outside looking in and think that the issues of bowhunters are better served by each of us going off in our own separate directions, totally unorganized. To them I say you have some other groups that like that kind of thinking and it plays well with their agenda. Doc

That would be a great idea.