Doc

Haha! I was thinking the same thing. The guy in the vid got good at gutting fast because he was used to getting out quick before the law arrived!! But seriously, why the rush? I like to take my time to try and do a good job. Not to mention enjoy the warmth on my cold hands! No hurry here. The first thing I do is to stand there for a few minutes thinking, " Oh damn, now look what I have gone and done". Eventually, I talk myself into diving into the disgusting muck and mire. It's not something that I can say that I have ever really WANTED to do......ha-ha. Doc

Hey....Good to hear from you again. Glad you made it across to the new forum. You realize that you are speaking heresy, and will now probably be descended upon by the flames of the AR people both here and in the readership of New York Outdoor News? That's alright. It's always nice to catch both sides of all the different issues, and I enjoy a bit of controversy every now and then....lol. Yeah, after posting that comment, I kind of figured it out that there likely was an article size limit. That's too bad. You took on a huge topic that could extend into volumes of info. I don't suppose that the research articles are published on the net somewhere. I would be interested in reading a little more detail on those studies. You don't very often get to read anything on that side of the issue. Doc

They probably would say that they are available for NYS hunters who hunt out of state where such products are legal. Doc

Yes, I fully expect that too, and that is why I put the word "currently" in italics on my other reply. I have the same opinion that this is the foot-in-the-door law. I suspect that is why the NYB has always taken such a "no compromise" position on the issue. So many times innocent little moves wind up setting precedents that are used to go way beyond anything that anyone expected or intended. That's the same as the philosophy of the NRA. So many times I wonder, now what harm could that law do. But they have always understood that principle of "give an inch and they want a mile", and the idea of precedents and how they can be twisted to serve purposes other than what is obvious. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc

Larry- I am not a big fan of AR, but the question you had about whether or not we can tell taxpaying landowners how to hunt on their own land has been answered years ago when the 3" antler rule was established and the seasons, and all the other regulations. Should we be adding to those restrictions? ..... Well that's another issue. I don't believe we should unless there is one huge, important, well documented and scientifically proven reason that involves the health and perpetuation of the species. I'm not sure the AR crowd has met that standard yet. Your second point about how strong the convictions are of the QDM and AR proponents is a valid one ...... I think. I believe there is a huge difference between answering some kind of poll vs. the decisions we make out in the field when the deer steps out into the clear. I think also it is a lot easier to stand up for a concept as long as it is just a concept than it is when it is an actual law. Another thing is, just who is going to sit around with a bunch of other hunters and start preaching for killing 1.5 year old deer? So there may be a lot of hunters who are just saying what they believe their peers want to hear. So if the harvests don't reflect what we hear from hunters, I guess I'm not surprised. It kind of makes sense. Doc

Oak Duke (author of that article used to be a fairly regular poster on the old Empire Hunting site. I always enjoyed his comments even if I didn't agree with them all the time (surprise....surprise....lol). I don't know whether he has joined us yet or not. He used to go under the user name of Buckstopshere. Doc

OK guys ...... Thanks for the info. Doc

I'm sorry, I actually believed that you meant at least a little of the rhetoric that you were spewing. Now I guess you are saying that you really don't have any valid thoughts or convictions as to whether an early muzzleloading season should be implemented in the southern zone. See I thought that all those references to the southern zone really meant that you had some sort of principled belief that muzzleloaders should be allowed in the bow seasons of the south. Little did I know that you were arguing just to argue and taking the opportunity to just arbitrarily blast the bowhunters at the same time. Also, I took your following quote as something you really believed in: "No one said that archery season has to be taken over, just shared." How was I to know that you only think that idea applies in the north? lol..... or maybe you don't even believe in it there, who knows anymore? When you said that the archery season has to be shared, I thought you really meant it and I thought you meant it should apply statewide. Sorry ...... my mistake. I guess I have learned not to take your statements too seriously anymore because apparently there's not a whole lot of conviction behind them. Doc

No kidding ....... that's great. I tanned a fox hide when I was about 12 years old, and it turned out pretty darned good too. It was probably a lot more crude than your job, but it didn't come out too bad. I believe I used Oxalic acid for the tanning solution. i got the recipe from one of those books that are advertised in Fur-Fish-Game magazine. I'll likely try it again some day. Other than that one fox hide, we used to sell the raw stretched and dried hides to fur dealers. It seems that back then there was always dealers everywhere. Now I'm not sure just where I would go to sell hides. Over in Honeoye they have a trapper's association (Genesee Valley Trapper's Association?) that has periodic fur auctions. That's probably where a guy has to go now. Doc

Yes in areas that are shotgun only, I can see where a nice scoped in-line would be far superior to any shotgun in terms of range and accuracy. That makes a lot of sense. Every year, the bullets and powders and muzzleloaders get to be better and better. Where I am, it looks like we should be going to centerfire rifles this year If Paterson gets the bill signed in time), so I guess I will be skipping the whole muzzleloading thing entirely. But I was just curious what the attraction was for people. I would imagine for those that like the more primitive versions, there may be a certain amount of historical appeal and linkage. I can dig that too. Doc

I saw another video on the 2-bladed version of these things. Those definitely would be illegal in NY since even in the collapsed position they form a barbed head. But man, what a nasty cut. When deployed these things form a cutting width that is greater than 2". They showed a couple of few boars where they used them and the damage was very convincing. They seemed to have no problem getting entrance and exit wounds. The 2-blade version uses the same principle and the same kind of mechanism to deploy the blades as the 3 blade. I guess I am convinced that the principle works as long as you have enough bow poundage to shove all that stuff through an animal. Doc

Lol, I suppose that's one way to make sure they stop......just eat 'em! That'll put an end to that nonsense. Doc

Ok, I have a related question. Do all cell towers service all service providers? In other words if a tower was put up by Verizon, can an AT&T customer utilize that tower? Or another way of asking the same question would be, "If I can see a cell tower over on the next hill, am I guaranteed to get a signal regardless of what service I use?" I have heard both stories, one saying that cell towers are used for any service provider and one saying that cell towers are vendor specific. I thought maybe someone here might know the answer. Doc

So are you now saying that all the blather about how bowhunters are whiners and how they think they own the woods and how they should learn to share the woods with the muzzleloaders like the enlightened ones in the northern zone was not really something you meant? I kind of took that as meaning that you were in favor of muzzleloading seasons being jammed into the southern zone bow seasons. That was all just B.S. that you just said for effect? OK, I can accept that. I thought it was rather stupid stuff to be saying in the first place and I can certainly see why you would be backing away from it all now. I've got to admit that one does need a scorecard to keep up with just what you do believe. Doc

What do you mean? Did you tan the hides before selling them? Doc

So why did you guys decide to get into muzzle loaders? Doc

Okay ..... the springloaded feature may save the legality of them. Apparently unless they are moving forward through something, they collapse back down by themselves. Note that in the video, everytime she backed off the pressure on the tip, the blades retracted. That means that as soon as the come to rest, the blades collapse. In the collapsed position, the profile is not in the legally defined "barbed" configuration. That all does bring up some interesting questions about how well those blades might deploy. It is only the force on that little tip that forces them into an open position and yet you have all that force on the much wider blades themselves that is trying to keep them closed. I'm sure it must work or they wouldn't have invested all that money to make and market them, but it's not real obvious that they would be all that reliable. Again, watching videos and reading words does not beat having the things in your hands to actually mess around with. It sure is an interesting concept. Doc

I did read about a deer eating a fish once. You know how people talk about goats eating anything. Well, it's just another kind of goat ..... lol. Doc

I do have coverage and do carry my phone. But it stays off, and will unless I have an emergency where I need help. I don't really want that stuff brought into my hunting. I hate phones anyway, and really don't feel the need to be wired up and in contact all the time. I have to laugh everytime I see these people who can't even drive down the road without having that thing stuck in their ear. Or how about the people who think that everybody in a restaurant needs to listen to their conversations....lol. At any rate, for me hunting time is not socializing time or game time or surfing time so the thing stays turned off. Doc

No twists ....... no spin ....... I am only responding to your own statements as you post them. Doc

Really? I usually take my draw when the deer's head is behind a tree or its obstructed in some other way, so when Im ready to shoot, the deer never saw my draw or when I raised the bow. A little detail you needn't concern yourself with if you have a crossbow .... right? Youre nuts if you think Id sit there with a heavy crossbow shouldered before the deer was in range. That's why they sell that nifty bipod that mounts under your stock. Or maybe a nice kneeling shot with your elbow braced on your knee while you wait for the deer to approach shooting range. Heck with the right conditions, you might even want to use a prone position. If your in a ground blind, you can use the old trick that I do when gun hunting. Provide a horizontal shooting rest (a log or a downed tree) so you can actually bench rest the crossbow. Yeah, it seems like you have a whole lot of options. The same amount of motion is required to pull the trigger on a bow or crossbow. When that's all you have to worry about is squeezing the trigger, you're absolutely right. You have obviously never shot a crossbow in your life if you think you can use a scope to sight it in properly for 0 to 45 yards without adjusting your aim point. Its pretty much like shooting a bow with one pin, you move it up or down depending on range. So, all those scopes that I see on just about every crossbow in the catalogs are just for show. Nobody really buys them because they aren't any better than a bow with one pin. BTW, I have a light on my bow site, it works plenty well in low light. I think Chevy might have been talking about the light-gathering effect of a scope on the whole image and not just on your sight pin. I don't know. That is a quality of some of the more expensive scopes. I know on my shotgun scope, I am always amazed at the kind of detail I can see through my scope in some rather ridiculously low-light conditions that I could never see without the scope.

There you go forgetting about ground blinds and treestands - whose purpose is to hide movement from the deer. I have 17 stands set up - not one has a rail on it only 2 have a provision for one. I didn't put them on because they basically get in the way more then help. And I could not imagine trying to manuver a crossBOW around on one steathily and have more then a very limited range of shot possibilities. Ha-ha .... to listen to all the complaining about how clumsy heavy and awkward crossbows are, and how they aren't one bit better to use than real bows, I have to wonder why you are worrying about cramming them into bow seasons or any other seasons for that matter. To hear you guys tell it, they're only one step better than a club....lol.

Bubba- Let me remind you who it was that turned this thread toward the muzzleloader. See if you recognize this quote: "seems to me NYB is against anything that infringes upon their methods. They fought an early muzzleloading season in the southern tier because they own the woods at that time. Funny part here in the nrthern zone bow hunters and muzzleloaders can hunt at the same time and it works fine. Off topic I understand but it just seems there has to be some compromise here and none is being shown from one side on any changes." So just to keep the record straight it was you who began the discussion of cramming muzzleloaders into bow season. And if you expect me to just let those attacks on bowhunters go by without response, you are wrong. And let's be honest ..... you really were trying to provoke a response weren't you? ..... lol. Now, as far as your explanation of muzzleloading season, it sounds like you are admitting that muzzleloaders as currently defined by NYS really have no justification for special seasons outside of the regular gun season. I agree. If they currently defined muzzleloaders as the type of equipment you are talking about, i.e. primitive rifles using only patched round balls only no scopes that would be a different story. But that is not a limitation that NYS puts on muzzleloaders, is it? As far as the difference between a compound bow and a crossbow, I will once again repeat a reply that I posted earlier in this thread: "So what really are the differences in shooting recurves and longbows versus the compound? Well, as a matter of fact there is still the entire max draw weight that has to be encountered at some point through the draw cycle even with a compound. Also, apart from the hold-weight differences, the act of properly shooting both a recurve and a compound are exactly the same. All elements and disciplines of form are identical including the stance, draw, consistancy of anchor, consistancy of hand position, consistancy of bow arm bracing and muscle alignment, consistancy of sighting, back tension, release, follow through. Further, failure to abide by these disciplines results in the same penalties in terms of target results. So, all of these elements are required to shoot a compound, a recurve and a longbow and that applies whether you are talking sight shooting or instinctive. Now, tell me which of these archery related shooting disciplines apply to a crossbow?" Of course aside from those obvious real archery shooting disciplines and procedures, there are also some other physical differences that I didn't bother to mention such as the bipod commonly mounted on the end of the stock and the scope that most often is a part of the crossbow paraphenalia and other common accessories that are difficult, impossible or impractical to put on a compound bow. And I will not even get into the potential differences of the future. Just like the radical changes that we saw in real bows, and the radical changes you have noted in muzzleloader technology, we know that crossbow technology has just begun its development, and as R&D money is supplied by their expansion, they will start to utilize this new platform to add new features that are currently only hinted at. It seems strange that such obvious differences have to be pointed out to another archer. But at any rate, you asked and I have answered .....again. Doc