moog5050

I am not sure when they measure with an arrow, at what point they measure or if they need to add 1.75". When on a draw board, you measure from the deepest part of the grip to the end of the string at full draw and add 1.75". By way of example, I am working on a pulse now, and the first measurement from deepest part of grip to string at full draw was 26 5/8" giving you a DL for the bow of 28 3/8". I needed to get the DL down to 28 1/8" which required twisitng the string and then the cables to keep the DW weight up as twisiting string alone will reduce DW. I now have it at 28 1/8 and everything in spec, timed and synched. Now to get a rest on there and shoot a bit. Doc - have a great day. Nothing more.

JJB check your info. Based on a 6 second search on google, the tribute does have a draw stop.

You make me laugh Doc. Since starting archery only 2 1/2 years ago, I have probably owned more than 30 bows and tuned more (including disassembling them). If that is limited, then my experieince is limited. Now, if you are talking about recurves or old compounds, yes I have no experience. But all of the, I guess I will say popular bows today, have draw stops. Could be that the reason they do is because of the high let off, which results in the bow locking up if overdrawn even by an inch without stops. Again, I guess the old bows that have 50% let off, that may not be an issue and I would assume its simply cam design. I have never shot or worked on one. But your response suggests to me that you have limited experieince with the types of bows being sold today. The hoyt tribute may be an outlier, but most hoyts, matthews, elites, strothers, bears etc. have draw stops or cable stops to create a solid backwall and to prevent lock up. Thank you for the historical perspective however.

Doc A modern compound can and will lock up if drawn without the stops. Ask me how I know. I don't need the physics lessons. I have torn down and reassembled many bows, just none that didnt have draw or cable stops and rest assured, the op will buy a bow that has stops. Identify one modern compound bow sold today that doesn't have stops. I challenge you to find one.

Bacon it is. Thanks

Thanks Shawn. I certainly understand someone could stop drawing before it locks up, but my question really was, if the bow is pulled beyond the intended DL, would it lock up?

I wasn't trying to start a new argument. Just curious. So, JJB - on that old PSE, if you had someone draw the bow who had a 3" longer draw than you, would the bow lock up? Surprises me that any manufacturer would design a bow that could be locked up by simply pulling it too far. Not arguing its not true because I simply have no idea. I have done it while tuning after removing draw stops and forgetting to reinstall them before drawing and there is a certain pucker factor in getting that locked bow back to the press before it explodes (or so you think). lol

so on a bow like this, what stops one from overdrawing it to the point of lockup - or can that be done if its overdrawn?

Now that is funny. I guess I assumed all along that you shot a modern compound and all of my comments were directed towards that. I am not sure if anyone makes a compound without stops today. Could be, but I have never seen one. Agreed that a bow without stops (like a recurve) does not have a set or established DL. I assume the OP is buying a modern compound that will have stops. I am now trying to wrap my mind aorund the idea of a compound without stops - what would cause it not to over rotate and lock up if drawn too far, like one of my bows would without stops? Interesting. I always thought that even older compounds had cable stops.

My first doe was quite a thrill. Less than perfect, ok bad, shot placement and lots of tracking (great first chance for the full experience) but I got her that night. Then, this last year my first true bow wall mounter was awesome, more so for the team tracking job than anything - thought I had a perfect shot and ended up hitting under the heart (a lot of blood AT FIRST) - that buck didn't want to go down. We tracked and watched him bed several times, kept pushing until we finally finished him. Also, having 3 out of 4 of my friends tag out early in bow when we hunted together, with the 4th having 2 chances on nice deer, was very cool. Oh, can't forget predicting the exact day and time (based on conditions) that a monster would show at a stand was awesome - unfortunately our friend missed him. Good news, he is still around for this season. Lets hope he remains predictable.

Very Nice! Congrats and good hunting.

LOL - great minds .... Belo, what does my friendship with Phade have to do with the fact that DL doesn't change when you alter your d-loop? Nothing, but thanks for pointing out that useful tid bit.

You are discussing compound bows, not recurves or long bows, correct? Every compound I have ever shot has draw stops or cables stops. They stop the bow from being drawn further when at full draw. When I hit the wall, I know I hit the wall. I anchor with my first knuckle below the hole in my ear and my nose touching the string - which puts the nock below my eye because I have the correct bow for my DL. IF I wanted to anchor further back, I would increase my release length or d loop, not my DL because that would put the arrow nock further back than it should be. Again, MY DL is the same, the d-loop or release only alter anchor point. And for those that didn't take the time to read this ridiculously long thread, the point was that the length of your d-loop or release does not change what is the correct DL for a person. That's all. I really have to work today so off I go.

I think I doubled my post count on this thread. Thanks Doc. Moving up the ranks

I will believe you on the bacon because I really want to.

Bacon is correct except I am dieting

Doc This is your response: "Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that. Here is where we are not on the same page. Its not anchor selection, its nock location. The anchor does not dictate where the nock is at full draw. The DL does and that is constant. The anchor can vary based on loop and release and will be well behind the nock. The nock can only go as far back as the bows DL will allow it when you draw the bow the full way. You want that the bows DL to put the nock under your eye while at full draw. This has nothing to do with the anchor. Again, assume a 3" loop. If you draw the bow all the way and the nock is below your eye, then that anchor hand will be well behind your ear. Anchor is horrible but the DL is correct. Now shorten the loop to 3/8". Same exact DL on the bow and it will result in the nock below your eye again, but now your anchor is better. See the DL never changed, but your anchor did. You seem to think that DL equates to how far back your pull your arm, but it doesn't. It is how far the nock needs to travel to sit below your eye. (in general terms) Again, exactly where below your eye then depends on where the pin settles best. But again, even that is based on the distance of the nock from the extended bow arm, not where you hold your anchor hand.

No problem. I am only repeating what I learned from archers much more knowledgeable than me.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I give up.

Because, as has been explained ad nauseum, the accessories don't change a shooters true DL. Let me ask you this, assuming assessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter? Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him? If the answer is yes, then you are bucking what every coach will teach. Why, because the idea is to have the skeletal frame support the bow at full draw and relax the muscles. If you are not in a T position (the position which will result in the nock under the eye), then you are using more muscle which tends to cause erratic movement of the pin and a less repeatable shot. Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw? If we can't agree on that simple premise, then we have no common ground to start the discussion that has been ongoing for 60-70 posts. And again, I will agree to disagree.

Not necessarily. You can alter the d-loop or release to find that right anchor for you. That's the type of small changes that you go through after you have the perfect DL typically. That doesn't change DL though. Some coaches may tell you to anchor differently if your way off even if its less comfortable at first. I have swapped between a back tension release and a wrist and trigger release. Both required different anchor points for me. DL never changed though. I have also shortened my d-loop for a more repeatable anchor. Again, that didn't change my optimal DL. Good luck with however you choose to shoot.

He is the man. Wish I could attend one of his seminars. Waiting for the DVD to be finished. Best part is, he will take the time to respond to your PMs. He is to archery like Dan Infalt is to killing big bucks. One of the greats, but very approachable and willing to help anyone that simply asks politely.

If this is still a serious question, my answer would be: If at full draw, the nock is below your eye, you have the right DL bow from the factory. The length of the dloop or release only impact where you anchor. Bigger loop or longer release would mean you are anchoring further back on the face and vice versa. Now, if you really want to get technical, very small adjustments to the DL even after you have ordered the correct DL bow will help steady the pin. DL movements of 1/16" can make a drastic change on how well and quickly the pin settles. If the pin is jumpy, DL is likely slightly short. If it moves slowly in larger circles, it may be a hair long. That's when a press comes in handy to adjust DL at the very small levels via twisting and untwisting strings and cables. I know Phade mentioned it, but I did a test on two bows by changing my DL from 27 3/4" up to 28 3/8" in increments of 1/16". The result on both bows independently was that my pin settled best at 28 1/8". Both bows are standard 28" DL but the small adjustments in DL make all the difference. That said, a shop is trying to get you the right DL to the closest 1/2" as that is how bows are sold. Whether you tinker further to find the precise DL is up to you. Thats my take Orion.

Doc Even though you claim no one is making an effort to understand you, perhaps that isn't true and, instead, we just don't agree. I have no idea how much experience you have with coaching, tuning compound bows, breaking them down, etc. I will suggest that you contact Nuts & Bolts (Alan) on AT. He is about as knowledgeable on these issues as anyone and I have studied his posts and tutorials for several years. Perhaps he could convey what, apparently, we are failing to convey. Seriously, that guy is a coaching and tuning genius. Go get it directly from the expert. I can attest that he is a great teacher and I have learned a ton just from studying his posts. In fact, I have his 200pg "manual" on my workbench, next to my press and draw board for reference. It is a sticky on AT. Check it out and lets agree to completely disagree for now. Maybe you will change your mind once you talk to Alan or read some of his tutorials. On to the next hot topic. Sausage or Bacon and why?

LOL - I tried this 20yrs ago when I had some NFL scouts come to my school. They would not let me include the thicker sole. I never quite reached 6'1" as hard as I tried.