steve863

I find Toruk's post very interesting, especially since it comes from someone who lived in a rough neighborhood where illegal guns were a part of every day life. Some people think that having NO gun laws and arming everyone is the solution and that it would reduce crime in such areas and make things better. Maybe if they actually lived in such places they would think differently? As far as the NRA having a minority spokesperson, I know they had ex basketball player Karl Malone on one of their ads a few years back. In general I think most minority groups, be they black, hispanic, asian or other are accepting of common sense gun laws, thus they will not jump on the NRA bandwagon, so having a minority spokesperson probably won't help them much anyways.

You can thank our capitalistic system for allowing this. You know damned well that American business (and even private individuals) likes this cheap labor force that these people provide. They could care less that tax payers like you have to make up the slack for them. These same businesses then donate to the campaigns of the people you will eventually vote for, thus JACK $#!+ will ever get done in terms of enforcing immigration laws. Throughout history of American business it has always profited with immigrants be they legal or illegal. Once we had droves of people entering this country legally so they used them. These days we don't have as many coming in legally, so of course they will use the illegals. So unless you want to change to a system other than a capitalistic one, I see very little hope for you on this issue.

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.Dave Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay. Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything. You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway. This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway. What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better? Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed. If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here. Good luck finding something better. So nobody is supposed to complain or express their dissatisfaction with the faults of our system? We are all supposed to fall in, lock step and never even try to change things for the better? You think that this government will always be the same? Wow steve, you dont strike me as a roll over and quit kind of guy, but maybe I have misjudged you. Im starting to think that you arent much of a student of history though. So how does one change things in your opinion?? You vote someone else into office, try to tell others which way they should vote maybe? Write letters to your representatives? Has any of this changed things to EXACTLY the way you want them to be? There are plenty of different opinions on any issue under the sun in this nation. You guys realize you will never change everyones mind, don't you? No, I don't roll over and quit, but I DO realize that society changes it's attitude on many things and will change some more in the future and sometimes for the better and sometimes not. All the crying in the world won't change these peoples mind into going back to the "old days" like many here want. When all of us old farts are dead and gone, the next generation will carry things forward the way they see fit for better or for worse. Only so much we can do to change things or keep things the same. The prior generation probably thought they were better than us, and now we think we are better than the next generation. The same story told over and over just like a broken record.

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.Dave Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay. Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything. You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway. This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway. What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better? Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed. If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here. Good luck finding something better.

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there? That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA. Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places. LOL

I'm glad someone else mentioned that there is probably some more to this story that we don't know about before me. I don't know, but even liberal DA's would give a women the benefit of the doubt in a clear cut case of self defense. If she used an illegal gun they may have held that against her, but she didn't use a gun. There had to be more to the story for them to get a murder charge on her. By looking at her mug shot it sure appears that she more times than not helped herself to that marijuana that she claimed to grow for medical purposes and for the benefit of mankind. LOL

Eventhough I am a Remington 700 fan, my vote would go with the Marlin XL7 also if you want an economical model that has everything one would want. The problem with many budget models is that they have sloppy triggers. That is one gripe I have heard against the Savage Axis. The Marlin has a similar trigger to the high end Savage's which is pretty darned good. For the money the Marlin can't be beat.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if the youth hunt was implemented, but I surely am not in favor of it for all the reasons already stated. Hunting is a pastime that you will either like or not like. You might as well get a taste of how it's really played from the get go. Sugar coating it, just to make some kids think that they MIGHT like it won't win them over in the long run anyway. Plus there will be those mentors who will take the liberty during this nice and quiet preseason to "plug" that nice deer for the youngster, just to show them how it's done of course! So exactly what will that teach them??

Very interesting and honest post. It's usually the locals who blame the city boys for coming up and shooting up all the game and then the city boys blame the locals for the very same thing. It's not often that I hear a local blaming his fellow locals for shooting up game on land owned by non-locals. I always thought that if anyone was shooting things up it WOULD more likely be the locals since they live in the area and can access it at will compared to non-locals who only get to it once in a while.

Agreed! It really need not be complicated at all and in this computer age, this could all work quite easily. Some people here are ready to string up anyone up who utters "gun control", when in fact new gun control can mean a vast improvement over the nonsensical laws we currently have, most of which could be scrapped. I can't fathom why anyone would think this wouldn't be to the best interest of gun ownership in this country? Like I said, the idiots at the NRA should be pushing this. Maybe then they would actually get some respect from the rest of society, instead of having the rap they currently have. It will take compromise on everyones part, but without compromise NOTHING ever gets done. Just clinging to the same worn out tune will not get us anywhere in my opinion.

steve, this is where you fail to see the forest through the trees. The regulations that are already in place are more than enough if they were enforced. What CAN be enforced? You have a maze of laws, none of which are uniform across state lines. Have some sort of national system where one set of laws is the law of the land and we will be getting somewhere. As the main representative of gun owners the NRA should be pushing for this sort of gun law reform, instead of having coronaries at the mere mention of any gun law. If they represent gun owners and want the rest of society to accept us as responsible citizens who don't want guns to easily fall into the wrong hands, it would be to the gun owners benefit to propose such sensibility. I won't be holding my breath though. I have often thought that it wouldn't be to their financial benefit if some sort of sane law was devised where it would benefit gun owners in the long run and at the same time make it tougher for criminals to get guns. That's the reason NOTHING ever get solved in this country. Too many greedy scumbags making money on both sides of any issue for it to ever come to a sensible resolution.

Miracles DO happen I guess. The first post of yours that shows some level of sanity. What also needs to be added to this is that the same needs to apply to private sales. What good does it do if NICS checks are required for purchases from dealers, if you can buy and sell it privately with NO background check? I have NO doubt that this system WOULD keep guns away from the criminal element and there would be a better checks and balance to exactly how they are getting them. Try passing this by the NRA, though! They would have a huge $#!+ fit over anyone even suggesting something like this. So tell me that they aren't also part of the problem here??

That makes no sense...lol... the laws in Washington do work, but the criminals are still getting guns? You just proved my point... Washington, even with its strict no gun policy, still hasn't kept guns out of the hands of criminals... what does it matter where they come from?... So lets just say Washington didn't have strict gun laws... the criminals would still have guns. So, that would mean with or without the strict laws they still would have guns .... hmmm .. now tell me again how their strict gun laws are working. Oh Yeah, It keeps the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands... because they are the ones selling the guns to criminals... hmmm... no that can't be true... because the citizens don't have any guns with the strict laws... Oh NO.. that means the criminals are getting them somewhere else... Oh I get it... you must be joking... you almost had me there Steve You obviously have trouble seeing past your own shadow. The problem is that gun laws are not uniform in this country. Uniformity is what is needed. You can dilly dally around the subject all you want. It is up to YOUR type to prove to the rest of society that gun owners are responsible enough to implement and accept regulations that will at least put some safeguards that guns don't fall into the wrong hands. NO, any law won't work in all cases, but having NO laws like YOU would prefer will work even less. You think society should have total trust in you owning any gun you want with NO questions asked. Good luck with you thinking that! With some of the senseless, bullheaded rants you guys exhibit here, I as a gun owner don't even have much faith in you, so why in hell should anyone else?? LOL

steve, if you take a real good look at the AR platform, you can see why it is very popular. There are all the accessories available that you could ever hope for to build one into the perfect rifle for what you want to use it for, it is an extremely accurate semi-auto and it is available is a huge variety of calibers, both center and rimfire. My friend and I hunt with a 223 chambered Rock River Arms rifle when we go predator hunting, and that gun is deadly accurate at 200 - 300 yards, light weight and just plain nice to shoot. I am looking into my next deer rifle being one of the larger caliber AR platform rifles, Im looking into either a 260 or 308 chambered rifle. I know quite a few guys that own them, and not one of them is arming themself for any type of armegedon. You just have to look past the "assault weapon" and "black gun" propaganda spewed by the antis and realize that there is nothing inherently evil or malicious with those guns. I don't know, I would think predator hunters using AR's are a very, very small group in comparison to all the AR's that are being sold these days. I walked into some gun shops recently and it looked like there were more AR type rifles on the shelf than other types of rifles. I couldn't imagine that it was only predator hunters buying them, and since the majority of them are still chambered in the .223 caliber they were originally designed for, I don't think it's the deer hunters who are buying them up in droves either. I think these type of weapons got their bad rap a good many years ago now, with some of those militias that sprung up around the country, and Aryan nation type organizations that felt the need to pose for pictures with them. Such images can have a detrimental effect on those who are not as well versed in weaponry. Unfortunately a few whackos spoil it for all others who would use them for peaceful purposes.

Comparing cars to guns is an extremely weak comparison. Cars were designed to transport people, guns were designed to stop or kill something. Big difference. I could strangle someone with the same rope that I hang my laundry on, but the ropes primary use is for something other than stopping or killing. One can't argue that a gun was designed for anything other than putting a projectile thru something at a considerable velocity. Surely one of the most effective killing machines ever designed, so it will take a LOT of convincing to those who don't own them (and even to many who do like myself) that they are just innocent objects that need no regulation.

Thanks Culver, I have always had the highest respect for your opinions on this forum. I know we can't be too far apart in our thinking here. All that is needed is an honest look at what happens to a gun after it leaves the manufacturer and how it can then end up in the wrong hands, that is pretty much it.

You are right, these laws will do little. What we need is some sort of uniform nationwide system in transferring guns whether they are being bought and sold from dealers or in private sales. You guys keep saying that criminals get guns illegally which holds little water when ALL guns leave Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc LEGALLY. The difference to what is legal and illegal in this country as far as guns are concerned is blurry at best. If you buy a gun from a dealer you need to go thru a background check, while tomorrow you can sell it to anyone you want, with NO questions asked in many cases. This is obviously where the breakdown is occurring. If all guns enter the market legally, how and why are they ending up in criminals hands?? Maybe some get stolen, but that surely is not how most criminals get them. It sure seems to me that many of these "legal" purchasers are in one way or another putting "legally" bought guns in criminals hands. I don't know why some of you can't see what is happening here? If criminals don't buy guns like the rest of us do, than we need to think about exactly how the guns did end up in their hands. The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting the guns from us. Like I said it's not like Ruger, S&W or Glock, opens up it's back doors and sell them directly to criminals to pass around to each other. All that is needed here is some honest analysis of how things transpire, and you will get the picture. No, there will never be any gun law to solve all the problems here, but I don't believe eliminating laws will make things better either. That in my opinion is the ultimate wishful thinking. Guns get in the hands of criminals the same way liquor got in the hands of people during prohabition... criminals seem to have a knack for getting what they want and getting around the laws ALWAYS. Not one gun law created has ever stopped criminals from getting guns or stopped people from getting shot by criminals... find me one that does and I'll be all for it.. Even if our government banned gun purchases all together and made it totally illegal to own, buy, sell or possess a gun... criminals would still have guns.. the only people that wouldn't have them are law abiding citizens.. similar to heroine.. which is entirely illegal to buy, sell, own, or possess yet somehow with all the laws people still seem to be able to get it... funny too.. because we don't produce any of the heroine here in America either... and how things transpire has nothing to do with laws imposed on legal law abiding citizens... if you really look at how things transpire you certainly will get the picture... gun laws don't do anything to stop what they have been touted to stop or slow down...GUN CRIME its all BS and nothing could be more obvious... if you think different... just look at Washington DC with the harshest gun laws in the country... and the highest gun crime rate anywhere in America... yeah.. the laws seem to be doing great there : That's the best response you could come up with?? Why don't you address the issue that ALL guns leave the manufacturing plants legally, yet end up in criminals hands anyway?? Bringing up liquor during prohibition is a lame comparison. Lets keep this to the subject at hand. And by the way, not that I agree with Washington DC's gun law, but it actually DOES work. It's the bordering states that have loose gun laws that help funnel the guns in, not the strict one in Washington.

Please, south of the border?? LOL Like there isn't enough guns in this country to supply criminals? You haven't read that "law abiding citizen sells guns to criminals", because the trail on a gun disappears after the first legal purchase from a dealer in most cases. If every gun transaction had to be filed be it from a dealer or private sale, you would NO doubt see how many legal guns are ending up in criminal hands. We have a loose bunch of laws and no two states with the same laws, thus you don't hear about these sales. Like I said before the gun manufacturers put ALL guns on the market legally, what happens afterwards is pretty much a free for all with our current gun laws that are in most cases worthless.

You are right, these laws will do little. What we need is some sort of uniform nationwide system in transferring guns whether they are being bought and sold from dealers or in private sales. You guys keep saying that criminals get guns illegally which holds little water when ALL guns leave Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc LEGALLY. The difference to what is legal and illegal in this country as far as guns are concerned is blurry at best. If you buy a gun from a dealer you need to go thru a background check, while tomorrow you can sell it to anyone you want, with NO questions asked in many cases. This is obviously where the breakdown is occurring. If all guns enter the market legally, how and why are they ending up in criminals hands?? Maybe some get stolen, but that surely is not how most criminals get them. It sure seems to me that many of these "legal" purchasers are in one way or another putting "legally" bought guns in criminals hands. I don't know why some of you can't see what is happening here? If criminals don't buy guns like the rest of us do, than we need to think about exactly how the guns did end up in their hands. The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting the guns from us. Like I said it's not like Ruger, S&W or Glock, opens up it's back doors and sell them directly to criminals to pass around to each other. All that is needed here is some honest analysis of how things transpire, and you will get the picture. No, there will never be any gun law to solve all the problems here, but I don't believe eliminating laws will make things better either. That in my opinion is the ultimate wishful thinking.

I will agree that the death penalty will never be a deterrent to violent crime. Humans have been executing criminals since the beginning of time, has violent crime ceased?? No way. As far as guns AND violence, I honestly think it's only those completely brainwashed by the NRA that believe that there is NO correlation between the two in todays society. I don't think it's by accident that we have more guns in private ownership in this country than any civilized nation and also the highest gun crime rate. I have said it 1000 times before, it is a hell of a lot easier killing someone with a gun than it is any other way. Yeah sure, guns or no guns, violent crime will NEVER cease completely, but NO one will ever convince me that the ease of availability of guns in this country doesn't account for a good many murders that probably wouldn't have happened if not for this ease either. And before someone jumps in to point out Switzerlands high private ownership and low crime rates, maybe they should study up how everyone there is highly trained in gun use and it's not like they could buy a trunk full of guns from a gun show with no questions asked like we can in this country. It's a whole different mindset than we have here, that is for sure. A mindset that the typical NRA type would surely sqwaulk about if they were subjected to it here.

Wow, 4 pages of posts for a bunch of proposals that are at this point only proposals. To me it only looks like the DEC is just shooting their mouths off incoherently with most of what they are saying here. For example AR's. They shot them down 2 seasons ago in those areas they are proposing them again here. So what's up with this garbage? In other DEC literature they state that "AR's are not biologically necessary" and here they are proposing them again. Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. It seems to me that they are talking from both sides of their mouth and the end result is that they make little sense and constantly contradicting themselves.

I wouldn't disagree that the term "assault weapons" has been used as a propaganda tool, but I honestly don't see the "black gun" craze as benefitting gun ownership in this country any. All I know is that hunters go out and buy guns to hunt with or to target practice with, while many "black gun" buyers are arming themselves for some sort of armegedon. They are putting ALL gun owners in the "looney" category amongst those who are on the fence on the subject. I can't see this as being a good thing, and that is what I think Zumbo was driving at with his statement.

Virgil, I completely agree with you. I am a hunter first and foremost. Many of the NRA type claim that the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting, which is fine with me. They can think what they want of what the 2nd amendment means and so will I. Since hunting and the 2nd amendment are two separate things, I should feel NO obligation to follow lockstep with their thinking just because I am a hunter.

Burt, you do know that Zumbo was practically horsewhipped for expressing that opinion? He was fired from Outdoor Life and Remington, and a slew of other companies and people didn't want anything to do with him. Who then steps in, none other than Ted Nugent who took him to his ranch to shoot some of these AR-15 type rifles and to "educate" him on them. I happen to agree with Zumbo and admired his guts to say what he felt. The shooting world unfortunately is not kind to those who don't march lock step with them and some of their extremist views. This forum is another example of this also, although not nearly as bad as many others which is a good thing.

Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin? No...I'm just kidding. Didn't you know that not many have a sense of humor around here? You may be waterboarded by a few fellow members for making such a comment! LOL