MountainHunter

Congratulations on your friends and your success! Those are some very nice bucks!

There was another gentleman who in the absence of logic went to the I want to feed my family comment. I wasn't addressing you specifically with that comment,and in reality was not looking to be harsh to that gentleman. I just don't buy that contention.

2/3 is a typical claim by AR supporters from supposed polls - their claims, not mine. It is also what those in the AR claimed was minimum support. Again, if there is that much support, why is it needed to be mandatory? With that much support, who is killing the 1 1/2's? As far as what's natural, the herd hasn't been close to natural in 100's of years since we have been invading their territory - 3 pt AR is going to change that when nothing else is close to what it was 100's of years ago? The deer are healthy in any part of the state where we kill enough to keep them within habitat limitations. Unless we get rid of about 95% of the people, natural is something for the history books. I answered yours - try mine. Who is killing the young bucks when everyone claims to want AR? You didn't answer mine. Not even close! http://www.hvqdma.com/do-antler-restrictions-really-work/ Do you know who Dick Henry is? Where he retired from? You guy's are same old same old. You have no interest in biology you just want to do what you want to do. When you can't answer with sound logic you go to the emotional. "I want to feed my family" type garbage. Shoot a doe,become a better hunter,get a second job.

In the AR pilot units? Hopefully no one. . No - statewide. The claim is 2/3 support them statewide and yet somewhere between 60 and 75% of the buck kill is 1 1/2. If 2/3 really support it (plus those who don't support but practice letting smaller bucks walk) who is doing the killing? I haven't claimed 2/3rds support state wide. If you believe I did perhaps you would copy the portion of the thread where I made that assertion. The support in the AR pilot program area's polling data exceeds 2/3rds and if they were to poll again I would be willing to bet the support would be even higher because the doubters have had opportunity to see some of the results. Has the entire state been polled? If so why don't you share what those results are. As long as you want to play the question game,why don't you answer mine. In the natural order without human interference what species of animal has a population that is made up of 75% juvenile males? It is clear you have your beliefs but don't assert they are biologically sound. They are not. They have no basis in biology. Freedom of choice is not biology!

Don't forget moving the gun season out of the rut....that would help protect bucks when they are most vulnerable. Interestingly, however, each of these can be disputed. Ohio does not have AR, but they obviously have big bucks. IL has a 2 buck rule and no AR, yet they have big bucks. TX has a really long gun season, but they have big bucks. I agree. In each of those states there are specific reasons for the differences,In ohio and Illinois probably the lengths of their firearms seasons and in Texas likely the vastness of the area,the difficult access because of how much is private and the appreciation they have for bigger bucks.

No of course not "everyone" but what are the two most common complaints of deer hunters? They are either not seeing many deer or they are not seeing bucks or "decent" bucks. It is not possible to satisfy "everyone".

In the AR pilot units? Hopefully no one. I have heard that it is likely that the AR pilot program will be scrapped. The primary reason being that the DEC doesn't have the resources to compile the data to sufficiently examine as to whether the program is working or accomplishing what it was set out to do. It will be a shame if that comes to pass because any serious deer hunter in those units has seen a dramatic shift in the age class of bucks represented.

The Cornell polling data in the AR pilot units with much higher participation numbers was very similar,actually it was a couple of percentage points higher. The DEC concluded that there is no biological need,I had read that misinformation also. I have no interest in a sustained griping match about AR's. I don't need them to kill big bucks and my horn rubber maid garbage can and wall would clearly indicate that. Where in the natural order of a species is a population represented by 75% plus of juvenile males? It's not! All the DEC cares about is deer numbers and the dollars that come from us sportsman,the rest is white noise for them,they could care in the least!

Many people want change or improvement but they don't want to be the one's giving up some thing. There are only a couple of ways to implement improvements in the quality of our hunting. AR's,a one buck per season limit,significantly shortening the firearms seasons. (clearly the most effective deer killing weapons). It is discouraging that no one wants to sacrifice,yet they want to see deer numbers increase or antler quality increasing. The length of the archery season would have very,very little impact on over all kill numbers,make it two months longer,in the scheme of things it would make very little difference. Season length has every thing to do with habitat and hunter density. Vast tracts of habitat,low hunter density longer firearms season have less impact. Small area's or broken up pieces of huntable land with high hunter density is conducive to a much more negative effect by longer firearms seasons. Pretty basic stuff!

The best part about this entire thread is that AR's are favored by more than 2 to 1. Yet Patti will ignore the request of the majority of us sportsman and cave to the inept Conservation Council and the aggressive but ill informed group from Western NY,the same region that has the best big buck hunting in the state. The simple and fair solution would be to allow Home rule,county by county but that seemingly was shot down. Management by emotion not biology continues in NYS. In the absence of hunters what would the buck age structure in a herd look like? Would 75% plus be 1 1/2 year old bucks?

Excellent Bubba! This little guy has a long tough road a head of him physically and mentally. His family needs all the help we can give them right now. Maybe just maybe with the care and attention we as sportsman are giving to this boy and family we can make a difference as to the future hunter he may become and more importantly the future person he may become!

Water proof and quiet are next to an impossible combination.It depends if you are concerned about moisture from vegetation as you wal through it or from rain itself. There is a fabric valled wolfskin that is really water resistant,and dry's really fast when walking,the heat your body generates will dry it out. For rain,I used to be concerned about rain gear beign quiet. In a hard rain game is not going to hear you,their hearing will be impaired with all the noise the rain makes in the forest. All I care about now is that it is light and packable and will keep me dry.I use a rain Shadow Jacket from Patagonia and I typically don't wear rain pants,I do wear gators some times. I have a pair of goretex light rain pants and a pair of light dutch harbor (PVC Helly Hanson type) rain pants. I hunt whitetails every year in Idaho,and it can be very wet.I struggled for years finding the right combination of rain wear for out there.

So the hunter who goes a number of years choosing not to shoot the easiest buck to kill in the woods is made to be in to some trophy fixated heathen? Maybe they are just good hunters who take no satisfaction on killing an extremely naive age class of buck. There is mo sense bickering here.no one is going to change any ones mind. I would welcome a state wide vote among hunters on this issue.Or at least tier by tier.

Thank you for the rational attitude and graciousness! (I am serious)

I love being right! ;D It scares the bejesus out of some hunters that they may not get their buck. So the most naive deer in the woods,the one and half year old buck gets toasted every year to satisfy their ego. Who has more ego the guy who has to blast a buck every year or the guy willing to go a couple of seasons without shooting a buck? Former NYS Deer Biologist said it best one year when being acosted by some loud mouth while speaking at a sportsmans club event. He was asked where all the big bucks were,with out skipping a beat he replied they are home in your horn box. You don't get better bucks in an area when you shoot them all at 1 1/2!

There is some intelligence! Very well stated!

I bet you know the answer! Why is it selfish to kill that spike?? How do YOUR theories help the herd and exactly what have you done for the hunting community?? The state wants deer shot and they could care less what the age of the deer is when it gets taken out of the population. The guy killing that spike is participating in the population reduction that the state needs. YOU fellas are the selfish ones where you want everyone to hunt the way YOU want to hunt and want people to pass up younger deer so YOU can hopefully have bigger ones to shoot. How could the people who simply want everyone to hunt any way they wish be more selfish then YOU boys who want to put more restrictions on what people should be allowed to shoot?? Your point makes absolutely NO sense. People buy hunting licenses in hopes of bagging a deer. In general they don't buy licenses to look at deer and wave goodbye to them for a few years until they grow bigger. You can look and wave at deer without purchasing a hunting license. If YOU want to pass up deer for 20 years until that buck of a lifetime walks in front of you, that is your choice. Don't for a minute think that everyone should be making the same choice. Take a breath there pal. I shoot doe's every year in area's that support their numbers. By letting the small bucks go I am giving two hunters likely a shot at a buck they would not have other wise gotten.I hunt equally in an AR unit and a non AR unit. 65% or so of the hunters polled were in support of AR's the majority spoke and Albany played Super majority politics. That is completely the truth,spin it any way you want. You are in the minority.

I get it just fine,we just have a different take on deer management. Our biologists do not know squat relative to the foremost authorities on whitetail deer management. Less deer allows native plant species to flourish,a more balanced age class of bucks provides more competition for breeding and a narrower and more defined breeding period assuring that fawns will be born earlier and have higher survival rates. The science supports this.

65% or so of the people polled wanted AR's that is indicative of a significant majority of hunters wanting it. Then the mysterious super majority was created to defeat it. (political BS) What is lacking here is the idea of patience,most supposedly ego driven hunters would go a number of years with out shooting a buck if it meant that the over all quality of hunting would improve. I likely see more bucks each year than most hunters yet there are many years that I choose not to shoot a buck. I don't know how many bucks were able to age another year or to be shot by another hunter as a result of the approach I take to hunting. So who is more selfish the hunter who goes about it in a similar manner to me or the hunter who blasts the first spike horn they see,who has done more for the deer herd and the hunting community at large? I know the answer no need to answer this.

Do you guy's want to argue or do you want to hunt? Maybe we should use Europe's system where the property owner owns the game. Given having the appropriate permission I am going to hunt on the property I have permission on in the best possible location in my opinion that property has to offer.If it is close to a property line than so be it,if you want to spend your time and energy making sure I don't shoot across your property line or recover a deer on your property go ahead. It seems like a terrible use of some one's time to me. I will say that I do not hunt in area's where others are hunting, so if I come across evidence of another hunter or hunters in an area I am out of there. I have been hunting a very long time and have never had a trespassing conflict,and I don't anticipate I ever will. I have said it before in the old forum,if I shot a deer and it crossed on to property that I didn't have permission to be on practically all land owners would think I was an idiot if I sought them out before just going and getting the deer. Your intentions are to utilize an animal that you have shot,what reasonable person would give you a hard time about that? There is a big difference with someone who has intention of violating your property rights and someone who didn't intend to be on your property and an animal they shot expires on their land. Would a police officer ticket a family member following the ambulance that had one of their family inside of it? Gosh I sure hope not. IT IS CALLED THE PROPER USE OF DISCRETION! Now lets beat the crap out of this some more!

I will indulge your insult this one time. It is area specific,if a 2.5 year old buck represents 15% of the bucks taken,that is a big incramental step. You don't get from starting a program to having 51/2 year old bucks over night. It takes time and a cultural shift.

No bashing here I would do the same thing,and absolutely have no problem sleeping at night. I don't take a stamp from my own business with out paying the forty four cents, I don't need any one to lecture to me about morality or honesty. I had a guy shoot a buck on our land several years ago,he was actually hunting on our property with out permission,he did not realize it because it was not posted. Initially I was not pleased,but the guy was so excited and so apologetic,I congratulated him and helped him get the deer out of the woods. A little consideration goes a long way! When you act decently to other people it always come back to you.

If someone contacts me and asks permission to retrieve a deer, I will give them permission, and I may even escort them while they do it. I want to see the blood trail. My name & address are on the posted signs and I live on the property so that isn't a real hard thing to do. However, I will tell you that in the 40 years that I have lived there, no one has ever done that, so I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to ever happen. Those that do not ask permission, if caught, will be prosecuted. Doc Good deal. I agree with you as well. I do have to say though, that there are landowners that cause guys to not get permission because when asked, the landowner denies the guy from going to drag his deer off. Happened to me with my first ever buck at the age of 19. I shot a deer on state land, it ran 100 yards and died 30 yards onto private property. I knocked on the door and asked the guy very politely if I could drag my deer off of his property and back onto state land to field dress it. He not so kindly told me no. I explained that it was dead and only a few yards in, and my first buck, I again was told no followed by the door slamming in my face. I went and got a DEC officer (no cell phones back then) and had him come with me, the guy had the deer tagged and hanging in his garage. Nothing the DEC officer could do. So how many deer would you lose before you stopped asking for permission and just went and got the deer you shot? I'm guessing one. Say the same thing happened the following year on the same unreasonable land owners property. Are you going to tell me with sincere honesty that you would forfeit another animal? Please forgive me if you say yes because I would not believe it.

I don't know what this persistant offender thing is that you keep talking about. It is absolutely impossible to get through my posted line without seeing at least 3 posted signs. That was the criteria I used when putting them up. along the line, you are never out of sight of at least 3 signs. So anyone trespassing on that land even for the first time is willfully doing so and they know it. It is no mistake. I don't have to catch them more than once. They have decided to disregard the signs and I have decided to prosecute just as it says on the signs. Persistant offender be damned! Doc My views are clear on this as are yours move on.

Best of luck to you Cliff! Between the poor distribution of deer management permits the bears and the coyotes,many deer herds are getting pounded.