phade

River's Edge has a new model out this year that is right around 20" that I saw at Gander Mtn. It looks nice. We have well over 40 ladders ranging from 15' basics to 24' Altitudes, which are a pain to setup but give you good vantages. The majority of our stands are either 15' or 19'. Once you get beyond the basic 15' height the cost for a quality stable stand goes up pretty quickly. A few of our basics are 19', which are just the 15'ers with the 4' extension and second brace. They are so-so, there is alot of flexing to notice when climbing. Cost-wise, I'd look at that River's Edge stand OR go to Dick's or Field and Stream (same company) and buy an Outpost or similar Field and Stream model with an extension piece. We have a few stands of that brand and they are pretty darn good quality. Comfy, too. I also do think alot of people over-estimate the height of their stands, amongst other things, as a bragging right of sorts. I can't tell you how many times people have told me they sit 25' up and when I see the stand, it's more like 17ish. Our 24' ladders are pretty far up there and that stand gives steep shooting angles for bow as it is when within 15-20 yards. I had a 32' stand once and that stand was in heavy cover but did allow for decent shooting. Still angles at that height are hard. The only time I see a need for major height beyond 20' is when on uneven ground -ie a 15'er could be eye level in front of you and 45' high behind you in hill country. Or, when needing vantage, as is the case with out 24' models to see over a marsh and be able to shoot down into it.

Gun season is likely going to be dropping this past year (14), this year, and likely each year for the foreseeable future as xbow kills go up, muzzleloader seasons are placed, and if they do decide to shorten gun season as has been considered, that will also dilute gun's impact. This also doesn't include full archery inclusion for xbow, which as much as people might want to deny, is going to happen at some point soon. All of this is possible within the very short term future - ie now - because its all been placed on the table by the DEC. You think gun is going is going to remain the heavy hitter for many decades? There are just too many things pushing against it to think that imo. In five years, the gun take is going to be a fair amount less than it was in 12-13. Instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket, the DEC is looking at all options. That I commend them for, but beyond that, they're not doing much to really help this situation.

The majority of gun harvests happen in the first portion - a 23 day season vs. a 16 day season won't net much difference in the overall harvest because of the fact that most gun harvests happen on the front end. That's why shorter gun seasons are just as effective at harvest numbers as our 23 day season. The harvest numbers for December and January bow are minuscule; the bulk of their harvest comes at the same time ours does - Oct. and Nov. Ohio provides in-season updates on harvests, so this is a known trend. Ohio also isn't the only state where this happens...there's a few here in the NE. Is it a factor? Yes. How often has the DEC thought about shortening gun season? Its looking into it now for the first time in modern history. Even at a time where overpop exists. The value of the almighty gun is still high but it is no longer the 500lb infallable gorilla in the room.

New York averaged about 67% for regular gun season harvest for 2012-2013 seasons. Seems pretty clear within a vacuum. Problem is, we're not in a vacuum. Other states have went through what we are going through with expanded muzzleloader and bow opportunities - the representation of regular gun season starts to take a precipitous drop. Crossbow harvest will increase in the foreseeable future - and you don't get as much cannibalism of vertical bowkills as one would think. Muzzleloader take will increase, especially if they implement the antlerless seasons. It all dilutes the take from gun. The northeast average regular gun take is 55% - and some of these states are heavy xbow/muzzleloader states - they're well below 50% regular gun take. The conventional thinking has always been gun hunting gets the job done. I strongly support gun-only hunters just as much as bowhunters or multi-season hunters. But, there is a trend toward diluted impact of regular gun season because of the growth of the bow/muzzleloader crowd. Ohio, which arguably has the strongest xbow history, had 191k deer harvested in 13-14. Only 85k of that was from regular gun. We likely won't be that extreme, but make no qualms about it, the impact of regular gun isn't going to be 67% in 5 years, or even after numbers come out this year (probably 65%).

This is done in the midwest - landowner tags and what not. Not so sure the average land parcel here and the dynamics are close enough to make it a worthy consideration.

I certainly understand your reasoning and I agree with many of your thoughts, but that is simply not true. Bow and muzzleloader can be a serious population control method.

Probably pales to the impact on the brain caused by the rails Bush #2 rode.

Aye aye aye, Grow.

I wanted to. Nothing like having a top 10% buck (of what you have to hunt) at 8 yds and prematurely hitting the release waiting for him to take the proverbial "one more step" to clear brush. Arrow flew about six inches in front of his brisket and then he bounded out of my life never knowing what just happened. Eyes were rolled back in his head and he was staring at a hot doe about ten yards away...and I went to move my pointer finger around the backside of the release trigger to wait for him to step foward, and blip....hit the edge of it. Poor pic of a pic, but he was hovering around 135-140 as a typical 8, which I consider a slammer because only a fractional % of 8s hit 140. Sorry for the derail. Back on topic. I really like my Z because it's a hunting bow. It's not a bow I would shoot for 3d/indoor, etc. but it's really the closest I've ever shot to a perfect hunting bow. Enough speed/energy, not too heavy, hold easy at full draw, smooth draw process and repeatable. It's also great for situations where you need to awkwardly make a shot happen, ie poor form might result from twisting in the stand to get the shot.

I'll let you re-read your own post and figure that one out. It's pretty clear. Don't get all riled up, Spring is here and hopefully Cabin Fever (not our Cabin Fever, but the malady) isn't lingering for you.

Please do re-read that thread. Despite your claim, I fear you may have reached for the apple when wanting the orange. Thanks!

EAB's goal is to wholesale reduce the doe population in a fairly wide area - whether it be WMU or aggregate unit (much more likely I believe once set-up). Shooting fawns as a portion of the harvest breakdown in areas where winterkill is likely and in highly over-populated areas - we're talking the kind of strain experienced downstate on Long Island - because that was where that conversation centered - is a different topic altogether. If you can't comprehend the difference between these two topics, there is nothing I can say to help you beyond what I just typed.

Assuming some of the history is tied to your user account as well. I get the same ads on separate, new, pcs after I log in. Cabelas, cruise ships, etc. And I've searched them.

My Z-28 is my most prized hunting tool. As much as I know it is just a tool, I use it better than all other bows I have ever owned. I missed a slammer last season and it was the first miss I've ever had with a buck while using it. And, it was all my fault. I apologized to my bow in the stand. True story.

The cash flows are still an issue since banks are hesitant to work the pot money through the systems. They need to fix that first. There will be some wealthy people from this new legal industry. Being a first mover and not even being good at it still looks like it'll net some serious cash. The ones who are good at it are going to be seriously successful because of the barriers to entry in the market and the risks.

Yes. Short of a mandatory check, there's nothing that EAB would solve. And, at that, the management would have to move from antler/antlerless to doe/buck and that isn't going to happen. You're still going to get kills of buttons because those that want to follow the law are going to hit the release on the first thing that walks by that looks like it'll meet the guidelines. I don't see many states running doe vs. buck distinctions. Even Iowa has this problem with shed bucks in their late season. EAB is fine if you can swallow the rate of buttons being taken shooting up dramatically. Then in 3-5 years, people will be complaining that there are no bucks because the buttons are being wiped out and the 1.5s are being shot like that are currently. So, instead of dropping numbers of does, we're dropping numbers of the first two age classes of bucks.

I'll set it right next to my buck tag in hand to see what is bigger. Seriously, EAB has some drawbacks that many people don't expect or foresee. That's why WI nearly had a civil war over it.

Earn a buck once implemented, is halted frequently because it isnt effective and supported. Wisconsin got to the point legislators were engaged to override the biologists legislatively to remove it. One of the biggest issues is it makes button buck harvests jump. And I would be in that bucket. Install EAB and I dont care if button bucky shows up - it is eating my grim reaper at 265 fps if it gets me my buck tag. As much as one could say, doe only, not many states I know of run like that. Usually its antlered and antlerless.

Sold pending funds.

Pm sent

Thanks. Closing in on 500.

Brand new in box still sealed in plastic. 175 shipped co us. Black body.

This thread may have backfired a bit.