phade

I think No Excuses is another popular variant.

I don't know what the cause is, but been a tough few weeks with the vehicles. Wife was scheduled to get the oil changed in the SUV. We have the same place change oil each time as they only charge $15 and use decent oil. Cheaper than for me to do it, really. She asked them to put on wipers (instead of asking me) as she thought it wouldn't be much trouble. I ask her how much they charged for it...she goes $18 each wiper. WTF!

Are you talking about the photo of the head alone? There's not snow in that pic. It's actually congealed lung blood; the deer was blowing it out on the death run. 12 ga slug through the lungs at 20 yards or so. My buddy told me I shot Rudolph when we walked up on him though. Maybe we're horrible people after all.

Barnes is pretty much the most often recommended MZ bullet. It definitely did its job, channel was much more noticeable than any SST kill I've had. I think a lot of it has to do with it just being MZ. He shoots max 120 gr, too. I don't think it exited either - hit off side shoulder. If Barnes didn't leave a good trail, I'm not sure much would have in that situation. Harvester makes some good options beyond their popular crush ribs. I plan on trying them out. I have their low-end variant of the XTP and they were accurate when I used them out of my wolf. I killed a doe last year with a single 50 gr 777 pellet and the 300 gr harvester.

Moog has an Encore too and shoots max load on BH 120 gr...and he has unburned powder coming out his barrel. It was easy to see because we were double-checking the MZ with snow on the ground. In front of my bench it looked like he was getting a fair amount of unburned powder. Heck, I got a little at 90 gr out of my Vortek UL. If you are shooting 150 and in, I see no reason to even consider max load unless you are pushing heavy weight and want the fps. A 250 gr with 70-90gr of BH209 probably covers most hunters needs and saves quite a bit of cash considering the expense of BH209.

I'm dropping the SSTs too. They shoot great, but I'm just not sold on the expansion/blood trails. Moog shoots Barnes and they are accurate. He drilled a doe freehand at 80 yards with one and it went right where he put it. It looks like expansion took place based on the channel and the energy spent into the deer. I was surprised at the lack of blood on the ground though - we both noted it. The shot really couldn't have been much better at all, tucked in the pocket right behind the shoulder and right around the top of the heart. He pushes a fair amount of BH209 so that thing was moving. She went down fast though...30-40 yds.

Body weight is the determining factor. Most doe fawns in our region are active in the breeding, often in the "second" rut. I forget the actual percent Art Kirsch told me but it was eye popping.

And its similar enough to warrant doe fawns being shot if the situation calls for it. Ontario isn't Avenue D in the city.

Everything people have said in this thread has gone way over your head. Your choice is your choice and I am fine with that, but to say emphatically that shooting a doe fawn has nor merit, especially in Wayne Co. is just ridiculous. Williamson and Ontario have similar parcel sizes - they even border one another. I know this because one farm I hunt on is massive and encompasses land in both jurisdictions and I have had to do a bunch of parcel mapping as a result to hunt the farm. There is no difference between Ontario or Williamson. There are apple orchards and muck fields and corn fields and green fields and woodlots...it's the same in large. There's a reason the state issued DMPs in such high volume. They wouldn't be if they didn't feel the area had lower DPSM. Ontario is in 8F and 8F has a top five DMP count in the entire state. Fact. Another fact is that yarding is the result of shrinking food sources or food sources that are unattainable. Given the amount of snow on the ground this early, fawn mortality will be higher than in recent years. Shooting a doe fawn this year would have been a great time to do so. I don't shoot BB for management. I shoot them either via misidentification (shot two in successive years when first started bowhunting back in the day) or simply because I needed freezer fare and the countdown clock was near end. I'm ok with those decisions at the time. If one gets popped, it's not the end of the world. Obviously targeting BB is very narrow in circumstance, but it does happen. You'd be surprised at how many co-ops there are or large landholders there are who are management serious. This is merely one avenue or situation that may apply. But the fact remains, shooting a fawn is legit in the right circumstances.

A wolf has been growing on my hunting bucket list. Some day....some day.

Better get a stairmaster for those hills. Can't rely on the little guy forever...lol.

Bold: And you are the one who can't comprehend. You need to be educated on fawn mortality and harvest. This will lead to better overall health of the herd and mature buck harvest. So stop being your hypocritical self. Non-bold: I'm not saying BB are specifically targets very commonly, but I'm saying that it does happen and on occasion, QDMA and other biologists call for taking a BB or two. #1 for comparing health of the herd with records and also in rare instances where situations like LI are taking place. For your information, I hunted in Newark, Williamson, and Sodus this season in addition to other towns in Genesee, Monroe, and Livingston. I didn't make it to my Yates spot this year. My total access in Wayne County is about 550 acres, so I got a wide swath of what the deer are doing there. I feel more than qualified to answer your observations with those of mine in Wayne County. The fact of the matter is you are wrong. I don't normally care about it, but you could do yourself a world of favor if you became educated on it and simply read about the biology behind it. The fact remains that Wayne Co is a perfect place to take a doe fawn out of the population given the conditions of the environment and the herd. You state there is no reason whatsoever to take a fawn (in Wayne Co) and you are in fact...wrong. Like I said, do yourself a favor and educate yourself instead of sticking your head in the sand.

THE QDMA SAYS ITS OK AND BIOLOGICALLY SOUNDS TO KILL FAWNS IN SCENARIOS THAT CALL FOR IT! WOW.

Keep sticking your head in the sand. I saw more than 50 deer yarding off of 104 about 1/8 mile from Orbakers just this past week - and I'm sure that's common every 1/4 or 1/2 mile in Wayne county. Do you know why deer yard at all? Sheesh. Trust me, Wayne Co has plenty of food IN SOME SPOTS, but the brainiac that you are isn't realizing that harsh winter and heavy snowfall makes that food INACCESSIBLE to the deer. Good grief. Keep trying to deny biologically proven management with nonsense. I just don't get it. Here's mother nature, when she runs into my slugs and arrows. These are just ones I happen to have on me at the moment. Not a thing wrong with taking a fawn. Every once in a while a BB slips through. I've killed three, I think. Might have been a fourth, but that's in the course of hunting since I was 12. Enjoy.

Oh I will. You opened the topic so beware...the pics might make you sad in the va-j.

Some managers of deer/land actually target shooting a buck fawn for biological information to weigh against past records and also to indicate herd health. In select rare situations, a buck fawn can be harvested for the same reason a doe fawn can be - most often in high dpsm areas with bad winters. I'm not saying that is overly common, but the practice of shooting a doe fawn is much more common and logical than you think and Wayne Co is a poster child county for that scenario. You said fawns eat less. Great. Fawns are also the FIRST (arguably with a very worn down buck from rut, I suppose, but for the 99% this is true) to die of winter mortality. They are the first. Read that again. The FIRST. They have a much higher rate of winter mortality than any other age class. By shooting them in legit scenarios, especially early, that food that they do it, is now available to deer that are more likely to survive the winter, namely 1.5s and up. Wayne county, with a supposed over-population of deer (hence the DMP numbers being amongst the highest in the state), and a very tough winter, make shooting fawns, especially doe fawns, a logical option. Another scenario where doe fawns are targets - low dpsm areas. This is the primary target for managers because in such environments, these deer do not get to the necessary weight to be bred in that first fall. By targeting the doe fawns, say for ratio purposes or other management needs, they allow the adult does (loosely speaking the breeders 1.5 and up) to become pregnant and increase the herd numbers. this process repeats itself until the population is up and the ratio is more in line with target goals.

I shot more fawns than you can shake a stick it. I've piled them up. I shot one this year in bow season. How about this - shooting a fawn can not only be management wise - but shooting one early in the season is even better! Shocking!

Yes there is. A sound biological one, in fact, knowing you hunt Wayne county. Keep your head in the sand...seems to be going great for you on this thread. Shooting doe (and even buck) fawns has been advocated in management for some time now. The QDMA addresses this quite a bit and is an easy source to find out situations when such practices would be warranted. Wayne County is one in which the deer population is deemed to be very high according to the DEC (granted, whether you take that as gospel is another topic, but in this situation, it is the best we have to go on). Wayne county also has some of the highest snowfall and hard winter weather in the state. Pair the two aspects together and shooting a fawn or two (especially doe fawn) is likely a scenario in which it would be green lighted by any deer manager who is worth a lick. I find it absolutely hilarious that you mention food plots and money and time (assuming investing in QDM) yet you say there is no reason to shoot a fawn - especially given you are in Wayne County. This is up there with the fact I expect you to hunt with an Xbow once legal.

I think he's alluding to both being table fare...wild game and farm raised. In that sense, yes. apples to apples.

As to two: you must have missed my last sentence in there. If I post it and others don't like it - sorry. But it's still posted. Everyone has a difference tolerance/interpretation of the topic of allowable or good taste photos. Just because you have a different one doesn't mean it is not tasteful or has no meaning. - all it means it that it is your interpretation. Sort of like opinion.

I don't need to support it - it's a well documented scenario in deer management. Anyone who plants plots and wants to age deer through the classes ought to know that by now. The best part is, NY is probably one of the prime candidates for areas with scenarios where shooting a fawn is the biologically and management-wise thing to do including Wayne county of all places. Instead of me just giving you the info, I encourage you to use your google-fu and research it and become enlightened about such a topic. I think if you research it and spend a few minutes doing so, you are more likely to understand it.

If it's to the point snipers are being brought in...there shouldn't be ANY animal in that herd safe from a ground check. At that point management of the resource becomes more valuable than your measuring stick.

Rarely is a product leaps and bounds better than most all on the market. BH209 is superior imo with most all you noted.

BH209 and never look back.

every job has its perks and annoyances. I don't mind sitting at a desk right now with this snow, but come spring and summer, us desk jocks take walks on breaks or at lunch bitching and moaning about how we would love to have a job landscaping and riding mowers and being able to be outside.