wolc123

I have not hunted with a vertical bow, since the crossbow was legalized, but that is another subject for another thread. Bows (vertical or crossbow) kill by "cutting", not "shock" like guns do, so their effectiveness is much less dependent on "power". That is why it would be best to start a new thread if you want to discuss that.

The least powerful gun, that I killed deer with (around a dozen actually) is my 50 cal ML with 100 grains of pyrodex or triple 7 powder. All (12) of those were hit right about where I intended and about half dropped right where they stood when hit. Those that ran off (usually hit thru both lungs) went an average of 50 yards. The one that I did not recover was likely single-lunged (he was quartering away at 175 yards when struck and made it about 300 yards). I found him a week later (well after the coyotes did) with the help of the crows. I learned two important lessons from that loss: #1) Assume every shot is a hit until PROVEN otherwise. The best way to prove a miss is to bring the deer down quick with a follow-up shot. For that reason (and #2), I no longer use a ML outside of ML season. More power, and more importantly - more quick followup shots, is always good. #2) That weapon gets too low on power, at about 150 yards, for any shot other than a broadside & behind-the-shoulder shot. I am about 90 % certain that I suffered my first miss on a deer with that ML last winter up in the northern zone. I located the branch that deflected the shot and I tracked the big doe in good snow for over a mile after the "miss". I found no blood, or hair near the spot she stood when I fired, or in the place she bedded down later. Hopefully, the good Lord was saving her to make a nice buck or two for somebody (maybe me) some day The next least powerful would probably be my 30/06 with 150 grain ammo, with which I have killed (3), all dropping dead in their tracks (assuming that comes out a bit lower in the energy department- at least at the muzzle, than a 16 gauge foster slug which has killed a few dozen for me, and definitely short of a 12 gauge sabot slug which has got the job done a few dozen more times. The way I judge the energy of a gun is by how hard it kicks and that 30/06 feels like a pop-gun compared to my slug guns. Hopefully, I will get a chance at a deer with a couple of new candidates in the "low-energy" department this season. Although my 30/06 has put all three deer that I shot it at down dead in their tracks, it is just too big and heavy to lug around up in the mountains. I sighted in my father in laws new-in-box, Marlin 336, 30/30 last fall. I hope he will let me take it out when the weather is fair. When the weather is rough, with rain, sleet, or snow, I will be lugging my own new Marlin 336BL, which I recently oufitted and sighted in with fiber optic open sights. I think that testing the limits on low power to "challenge oneself" is a very dumb move. I feel comfortable dropping down to the 30/30, because it has likely killed more deer in NY state than any other weapon. Why anyone would want to drop too much below that level of power is beyond my understanding. In the quest for a "better" Adirondack deer rifle than my 30/06, I considered a .243, but I ruled that out after seeing the amount of meat that it destroyed on a buck that a buddy gave me last fall. Lower speed and more mass in a bullet is the key to less meat loss and the 30/30 wins that battle over the .243 by a big margin. The .243 might be a very good pick for the recoil-shy "trophy-hunter" guys and gals, but it leaves us "meat hunters" a bit lacking.

Butter and lots of pepper per "The Meateater".

Sending my prayers for you and your dad. Were there any old songs or singers that you use to listen to together and that your dad really liked ? I have heard that music is good therapy and that it may provide some comfort and even bring some patients back to reality for a while.

If you head west with kids, the Niagara Power Vista in Lewiston is pretty cool (especially on a rainy day). They have a good interactive museum that is fun and educational for the youngsters. Best of all is the price (free). They have some kind of special event going on Saturday (also free), that sounds like it would be interesting. You could swing by and show them the falls. The cascading flow over those right now has got to be near record levels, considering all the rain we have had this spring, with no end in sight.

I imagine that the water is at least ankle deep and rising in the little power-plant castle (top right corner of picture) right now.

That looks like the one TF passed on last season. It would make an interesting shoulder mount. Because i am primarily a meat hunter, I would most likely pass on it also.

I am very thankful to have never ended up with an empty (or even an insufficiently stocked) freezer, after passing a safe, legal, make-able shot at a young buck. Although I can just about count "passes" meeting those criteria on one hand, either a larger buck (body and antlers), or a similar sized doe, has always offered up it's meat some time later that season. I also do not know the feeling of punching my buck tag, only to have a larger (and now off-limits) one show up later, when I am out trying to fill DMP tags. Last gun season, I killed a heavy (182 pounds field-dressed - on a certified scale), 3.5 year old buck on opening day, and all the bucks that I saw after that around home were significantly smaller. The biggest downside, from killing that buck, was that I was unable to deer hunt up in the Northern zone over the long Thanksgiving weekend (doe are off limits for most of us up there at that time). They say it feels bad when you kill a small young buck, and later get a chance at a larger, older one. Maybe so, but that would bother me a lot less than an empty freezer would. One thing that skews the situation a little for me is that I do not put nearly the effort into hunting, after my buck tag is punched and my meat supply is secure.

On deer: Compound bow: farthest - 30 yards, shortest - 10 yards Crossbow: farthest -59 yards, shortest - 13 yards ML: farthest - 175 yards (I made that shot but was unable to recover the deer due to a poor tracking job and bad assumption of a "miss"), shortest - 15 yards Smooth-bore Shotgun / foster slug: farthest - 120 yards (shot hit a little low and a second "finisher" was required, shortest - 3 yards Rifled Shotgun / sabot slug: farthest - 163 yards, shortest - 25 yards Rifle: farthest - 300 yards, shortest - 50 yards

Back in the day, most taxidermists tanned their own and many made their own forms. That had to keep their costs down a bit. It probably did not do much for their health and longevity, which is why it is a good idea to sub that stuff out. This hundred pound (conservative estimate based on PA chest girth chart) bb made about 50 pounds of boneless meat. Certainly it was one of the largest of the several dozen bb's that we have been blessed with thru the years. Generally, I get a lower percentage of body weight in boneless meat from does, because they have a much higher percentage of fat, and I try to trim most of that away. It is well worth the extra time and effort to get rid of that crap, because it sticks to the roof of your mouth while eating, taking much of the pleasure out of the dining experience.

That mount of your's would look good with or without a plaque. My dad is retired, and really into woodworking. He made be a beautiful black walnut plaque to use on the shoulder mount of my first antlered buck (a six-pointer with the seventh point busted off). The plaque really improved the looks of that one, which I had put together myself, using an old cape that a buddy gave me. His grandfather's large shoulder mount was re-mounted, on a cape much better sized for the big rack. The old cape fit much better on my 6-point, but still looked a bit shoddy, before I put it on the plaque. I only have one other shoulder mount that is on a plaque. It was done by an old taxidermist who always went with the traditional, facing straight, on a plaque style. He was also very cheap (I believe it was $125 back around 1990), but he always took around (2) years to complete the job. I did not care that much how it looked, or how long it took, since this buck was killed by a motorist. The huge-bodied, non-typical 12 point totaled the car. A friend on the town highway crew got me the buck (which still yielded almost a hundred pounds of boneless meat, after trimming off the "road damage".). It seemed a shame not to have that big rack mounted, especially back before the wife and kids when I had a bit more spare change, and I knew of a guy who would do it for $ 125. A few years later, my girlfriend was living in a loft apartment that was done up in the old English style, with the white plaster walls, dark wood beams, and cathedral ceilings. I gave her that mount for a birthday present, and it looked real good up on that wall (she was quite awesome looking herself). It looked a lot better there all alone, up on that high wall, than it does today on the wall of our house flanked by a few other no-plaque shoulder mounts. It might be that "birthday present" that convinced her to say "yes" when I asked her to marry, so I would say that I definitely got my $ 125 worth.

It turned out very good. I remember your description of the awesome hunt up in the big woods. Those are my favorite type of racks, having good overall symmetry, yet plenty of character. I like the board on the back also, you don't see that too much any more.

The Redfield Revolution scope was great on the range, when I finally got around to sighting it in. The click adjustments moved the point of impact almost exactly as they should (1/4" at 100 yards). After getting it dialed in, I fired one last 2-shot "group" from 100 yards with my hunting ammo (Hornady SST's). Initially, I thought one of them missed the paper, but closer examination showed the single hole was actually two holes, with their centers 3/8" apart. My average 100 yard group size, with that ammo and the old 4X Bushnell Banner scope, had been about 2" over the years. I really like having the 7X option to see what the gun/ammo can really do. I always leave variable power scopes on the lowest setting while hunting however, to take advantage of the wider field of view because there is nothing worse than not finding the deer fast when you look thru the scope. During the final, pre-season sight-in, around Labor day, I will see what it can do at 200 yards, and also see if there is any shift in point of impact between the 2X and 7X magnifications. I would also like to see how it does in low-light situations (The day I sighted it in was very bright). So far, so good though, and I can't recall having an easier time sighting in with another scope. This Marlin bolt-action shotgun is very simple to bore-site, by just pulling the bolt and looking thru the bore at the target, while the gun is in the rest, then dialing the scope to the same spot. That put the first shot (with an old, odd-ball sabot) on the paper at 50 yards. It took less than half the ammo to get this one sighted in than it did to get my fiber-optic open sights in on my Marlin lever-action 30/30. Good thing it did, since these 12 gauge sabots cost many times more than each of those 150 gr 30/30 rounds. I am not fond of pissing away cash on the range.

That sounds like a big issue to me. If "knuckle" means shoulder or hip, then it is hard for me to believe any deer could survive the hit from a .243. Each of those was hit on the buck that I cut up last fall, and about half of the meat on the deer was destroyed as a result. Your buddy's round must have been under-loaded, the wrong bullet, or the deer was way out of range. It might just be another reason to choose another caliber for deer. I am glad I went with a 30/30, when I was contemplating a .243 but I still have to see how that one does on a deer. My 30/06 has dropped all three dead in their tracks, but it is too damn big and heavy to lug around in the Adirondacks.

I have never seen a deer killed with a .243, but I did butcher (2) that were killed with one last fall. The 2.5 year old buck mentioned above and a doe fawn. The doe fawn was hit thru the lungs, behind the shoulder, and there was minimal meat damage (bullet passed thru). How would you rate the meat damage of the .243, compared to other calibers you have used, when the deer was struck in the shoulder ?

The problem with that shot, is that if the bullet does not strike almost the exact right spot (centered on the butt-hole within 1/32"), and if the deer is not properly aligned, a massive amount of meat damage, and/or a messy gutting job will result, regardless of the caliber. I did pull it off on my only attempt with my 06. In 36 years of deer hunting, that was the only time that everything fell into place and I don't expect to see that again. I have not heard of anyone else making that shot without at least a messy gutting job. Since it was late in hunting season, and my venison supply was not yet secure, I was willing to risk that "mess". There is always plenty of blood left in the cavity to rinse, and any meat is more than provided by an un-punched tag. I was not willing to risk a wounded and non-recovered deer however. Never have I been more certain of a quick kill than I was when that buck stood still, with his butt-hole 50 yards away from the muzzle of my scoped, well-rested 30/06. Putting the bullet into a 1/4" diameter opening under those conditions was no big deal with a rifle that has always held a 1" or smaller group at 100 yards with those Federal "classic" 150 gr loads. As explained, the bullet entered the pre-existing butt-hole, so there was no need for it to cut thru the hide to get into the deer. It made it up into the chest without leaving a mess of any kind (the butt-out II worked perfectly, doubling as a bore-gauge to verify the shot location) and cut a shallow groove across the heart (Texas-style), but did not bloody that up at all. On its way out, it cost me a small neck roast. My guess is that if it were a faster, lighter .243 bullet, it might have bloodied up the heart and it surely would have taken out a lot more of the neck meat. As I explained in my first post, the very next deer that I processed that year was struck thru bone (the spine) with a heavier, slower bullet and the meat damage was many times less. Although it was a shotgun, the 12 gauge Hornady SST uses a rifle bullet (looks to be .45 - .50 cal). The point that I am making is that there is no caliber that I have seen used on deer, that causes more meat damage, on any shot, than the .243. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of folks don't care all that much about the meat. There are even one or two on this forum who believe that it is ALL about the antlers. If that is your primary worry, then the .243 is a great deer round, quite possibly the very best. Light recoil, and massive shock damage make for an accurate shot and a quick kill. As for me, a pure meat hunter, it is a caliber that I would never consider using for deer, based on that one bad butchering experience last fall. I always try for the heart/lung shot, but since I am far from perfect, it is not always what I end up with. I have only killed (3) deer with a high powered rifle (all 30/06), One mule deer and two whitetails. The other whitetail was also hit with a Federal classic 150 gr. That bullet hit the buck, that was quartering away at 300 yards, centered on the second last rib, dropping it in its tracks. The bullet never exited and ended up in the inner, upper front leg on the opposite side. The lungs were turned to jelly and the meat damage in the upper leg where the bullet ended up was minimal compared to the .243 - killed buck last fall.

As long as you are not that into the meat, the .243 might be a great caliber for deer. Because I am a pure meat hunter, it is a definite no-go for me. My neighbor gave me a 2.5 year old buck, that might have field dressed around 160 pounds, last fall. He had hit that buck twice with his .243. The first shot struck broadside on the ham and the second "finisher", just forward of the shoulder. I recovered both bullets while processing. After trimming away all of the bloodied meat, I ended up with less than 50 pounds of venison from that buck. That was a bit less than I got from a 6 month button-buck that I killed with my crossbow last fall. The last deer that I processed last fall was a 3.5 year old buck that I had hit with (3) 12 ga, 2-3/4 in sabots: (2) Hornady SST's - one passed thru, just under and the other passed thru the spine, and a Federal solid lead sabot passed thru the neck. Less than a pound of bloodied meat had to be trimmed away from those three wound channels. The difference between those large diameter, slow sabots, and those hyper-velocity .243's was night and day when it comes to meat damage. If you must shoot deer with a .243, then you would be well advised to limit your shots to broadside, near the center of the rib-cage. Stay as far away from the meaty, boney areas as possible. It is a round much better suited for woodchucks, coyotes, and other non-edible species.

Martian nut, fry it up with butter and lots of pepper.

I once killed a decent sized snapping turtle with a bush-hog by accident. I was surprised how easily it chopped up compared to a woodchuck that I got another time with the same machine. The woodchuck nearly stalled the tractor but the turtle was barely noticeable.

Unless he packs a lot of pounds on that body before fall, that one would get a pass from me for sure, regardless of how much antler he puts on. There are not enough tacos in that buck to waste a tag on.

Looks very good, what did you do with the old cape ?

I planned on cutting part of the lawn earlier today but a late-morning rain stopped that. It only rained for about 20 minutes. Waiting for it to dry gave me just enough time to walk back to the range with my slug gun and it's new Redfield Revolution scope. I decided to swap out my spotting scope for a can of deep-woods off in my pack, just in case the bugs were bad back there. It said on the label that it is effective for ticks, so I sprayed around by pant legs (I had treated my rubber boots with Sawyers last time, and that should still be good). This Marlin bolt-action with the new Redfield gave me a lot less trouble than the "Remlin" lever-action with the mis-matched fiber optics. That took over 20 shots to get sighted in properly. The only glitch today, back at the range, was that my 5-gallon bucket chair was not high enough for the gun rest on the benches. Fortunately, a top-of-the line swivel office chair (it is amazing what folks put out to the trash) that was back there in a weather-proof blind was just about perfect (other than the castor wheels that sunk into the mud). The 2' wide x 3' high backing paper was still attached to the stakes from when I was back there over a week ago (that is the paper that I was not able to hit at 50 yards with those "mis-matched" fiber optics, until I added 1/4" inch of shim under the front sight). This time, I pulled the bolt to do a quick bore-site with the gun in the rest. My first shot with an "odd-ball" sabot was about 5 inches low and two inches right from 50 yards. Doing the math, and adjusting the turrets accordingly put the second, matching "oddball" centered, 1" above the bull. I was impressed that this Redfield moved exactly as it was supposed to, and the "clicks" were very easy to feel and hear. After just two shots with "junk" ammo, it was time to switch to the Hornady, 2-3/4" SST's that I use for hunting. The first shot struck a couple inches low, but once again the adjustment put the second one right about where I wanted it. I replaced the target and fired another at 50 (with scope on 4X), which struck 1-1/4" above and 1/4" to the left of the bull. There was an approximate 15 mph crosswind blowing from right to left. Next, I moved back to the hundred yard bench and fired two more (with the scope at 7X). While walking up to the target, I only saw one hole at first, besides the one from 50. Closer examination showed that the second hole was really and "oval" made of two touching holes, with their centers 3/8" apart. The center of that 2-shot 100 yard "group" was 3/4" below and 1" to the left of the bull. I was ok with that, and decided to quit well I was ahead, happy that it took just 7 shots to get this one sighted in. If I packed sunscreen instead of bug-spray I might have stayed a little longer. I probably will not shoot it again until Labor day weekend, when hopefully the range will be good and dry. It was not very comfortable back there today under the bright sun with the temperature well into the 80's. Surprisingly, there were no bugs at all back there. The Redfield Revolution scope did very well on the range. It was nice to see just one "bull" at 100 yards, and everything was crystal clear in the bright sun conditions. This one is supposed to have the "illuminator" glass, so it will likely do very well in low-light conditions. My two older Redfields, are the next grade down, but they still do ok in low-light conditions. Thankfully, that bright sun and wind dried the lawn out good and I was able to knock that off when I got back to the house.

The only thing that "blows my mind" is the number of folks out there who believe all that came from nothing. There is a book that explains where it all came from and it also happens to be this world's all-time best seller. Can that be a coincidence ?

For some reason, those Ruby Reds taste better out on a boat than they do in the house. Labatts makes a grapefruit light that tastes similar (made in Rochester NY, maybe even at the Genesee brewery). That and Blue light lime (also made in Rochester), are the only two Labatt products that don't give me a headache the moment I start drinking them. Apparently the Hemlock lake water is the secret to no headache.