wolc123

Now we know

Back on track: How do you catch a unique coyote ? A: You neek up on it. How do you catch a tame coyote ? A: Tame way.

This thread very clearly illustrates that we are all less than perfect. Everybody has a tough time admitting that. Thankfully, there is Someone who will forgive us all of all of our wrongs. About 72 % of Americans know that right now, according to the latest surveys. The 28 % who "don't know no better" still have time to "get with the program".

We need one of the more experienced pollsters, like Rob or Belo to do that. They can make them little boxes you check which give only two choices. There was too much grey area in the only poll that I posted.

As someone who tries to live a subsistance lifestyle, and feed his family off the fat of the land and waters, I am firmly against this practice. I see any catch and release fishing as the senseless maiming of a fine food source. To do it during the mating season is many times worse. Anyone who has grown up around farm ponds, has seen that when the male largemouth bass are removed from the nests, the bluegills move in quick to feast on the fry. Gobies do the same thing with smallmouth bass in the great lakes. Each time these super-agressive, easily caught males are pulled up into boats for photos and measurements, thousands of baby bass are sacrificed. Bass season dates were established for a reason, to protect future fisheries. That said, I do agree with the practice of catch and release of larger fish during their normal open season. Those are the breeders that are also very important in maintaining future fisheries. I prefer to keep only those that are at or close to the minimum legal length. A side benefit to eating these smaller fish, is that they generally contain less toxic chemicals, and are therefore better for your health. My favorite thing about the gobies, is that smallmouth bass get pretty big now in Lakes Erie & Ontario and the St Lawrence and Niagara rivers , at a young age. I use to release anything over 15". These days, feasting on gobies, they reach 20" length when they are still young enough to be relatively good eating. If there are one or two that size, in the first five that I catch, they don't often get released now. That is a big time saver in both catching and cleaning.

My wife made venison-barley soup in the crock pot. The kids liked it. It tasted better to me, after I added a little cayenne pepper and washed it down with a Genny light. I had to go back for a second bowl.

I am sorry to hear about that Rob and once again (or as many times as necessary) I forgive you for your personal attack. Sooner or later you will learn (as many others have) that there is nothing you can say or do to piss me off. The bitterness that you harbor is born of jealousy. What you are doing with these attacks is like drinking poison and expecting it to hurt me. My recommendation is that you stop feeling sorry for yourself and put your faith in the Lord. He can overcome any physical challenge, up to and including death itself. I will pray that you get better and have a good year hunting. p.s: Cool (8) pages. Hopefully a few more votes will come in to make the poll more accurate.

You and Buckmaster sound like a born fighters, who hunt primarily for the challenge. I don't have a problem with that and I would be happier if there was more like you. It is too bad that this poll indicates that the antler craze may be in decline. I was born a killer, who seeks to minimize the challenge, and I kill mainly for food. Fortunately, we live in a state where there are plenty of deer for all of us. By the way, last year's crossbow buck was also a 3-1/2 year old, according to the skull size (slightly larger than the one on the left on the page 6 photo). Is that mature for you ? I had thought it was just a stout 2-1/2 year old, until I did the euro and compared the skull size. The PA chest-girth measurement / body weight conversion also matches up to a 3-1/2 year old, per the NY state hunting regulation book. I did post a kill shot of that one with me in it, on the back of my wife's mini-van, in the crossbow section. The busted up rack was nothing special, but that is ok. Antlers do not mean too much to me. Now I can find something better to do with the $500 that a shoulder mount would have cost. That will buy a lot of fertilizer and diesel fuel. That sucker sure did have some meat on it. We just finished the last pack of grind from it last week and still have (5) roasts an a couple packs of backstrap left in the freezer from it. Our food supply looks pretty good at this point, with that and (2) more average-sized deer remaining. We should have plenty to last until the fall when the new ones start coming in if the Lord chooses to bless us again as He always has. A button buck sure would be nice because I am almost forgetting how good they are. Have you ever tried one ? There is something to be said for milk on the lips. That could be why they taste so good. I know for a fact, that General Eisenhower dominated the PA beef competitions, back in the early 1960's, with his black-angus steers that were finished on Holstein milk. Maybe Buckmaster could try that trick with his, since he don't care for venison.

That changes the situation. If they were side by side and the spike was clearly that much bigger, then I would at least consider using my tag on him. I might just pull the trigger, if it was near the end of the season and the extra weight would make the difference in securing our year's food supply. A side bonus would be saving the taxidermy money, as I would feel obliged to get a shoulder mount of a 150 incher. It has been almost ten years since I killed an antlered buck with less than 3 points on a side. I do get less fussy as the season progresses if our meat supply is low. Two seasons ago I saw two bucks in exactly the same spot, a few minutes apart, with about that same difference in body weight, as in your hypothetical scenario. The one with the smaller body showed up first, and was a 1-1/2 year old spike, which I passed. The busted up 2-1/2 year old 5-point that I killed minutes later was originally an 8 (no where near 150"). If the bodies had been reversed on those two, there is no doubt I would have shot the spike. It was the combination of tiny body and tiny rack (slightly more than 3") that kept me off the trigger. My neighbor's nephew killed that little spike a couple weeks later and regretted having to use his buck tag on it. He said that he did not see the rack and he assumed he was shooting at a doe. Now maybe you can understand why I would like to see 3-points on a side minimum AR's. If nothing else, they would slow folks down and make them make sure of their target. An individual with a buck and a doe tag in his posession can be dangerous when "anything goes". The situation you describe is highly unlikely because, like in the case I just described, the larger antlers almost always mean an older deer with a larger body. That is my favorite thing about antlers - the rough gauge they provide indicating the sex (and ease of processing), age, and body size. If bucks did not have them, it would not make much difference in my desire to hunt. I assume that you and FSW would never have gotten involved in the sport if that was the case.

In that situation I am with the 98 % that shoots the buck. The reason for that is because after all the fat is trimmed off from the doe (which is a very time-consuming operation), the meat yield will be similar. That is part of the reason I would like to see NY provide a third buck tag for hunters who purchase gun, archery, and ML licences. Can you show me where I called another hunter's kill my own ? I put up a picture of another hunter's 2-1/2 year old bucks skull to illustrate the size difference between that and a 3-1/2 (which I killed). No problem though, and I can understand you frustration with me. I would be pretty frustrated with you if the shoe was on the other foot and you had disproved one of my claims with some type of poll of your own.

Since his (FSW) livelihood depends in large measure on antler-worship, I fully understand his frustration with the truth that has been revealed by this thread: More people care MORE about meat these days than they do about antlers. He has nothing to back up his counter-claim, while all I have to do is point to this thread right here. Some folks like beating their head against a brick wall. I am more concerned with saving his soul than I am with ending his antler worship so it is good this is happening on a Sunday. Anybody can "preach to the choir".

Are you part of the (roughly) 72 % of Americans who identify themselves as Christian ? This post leads me to believe that you may be an Atheist. There IS something wrong with that. I would prefer to see nobody forever separated from God. It is never too late to join the super-majority and accept the free gift that He offers all of us. The worship of antlers may see you all the way thru this life, but will not do much for you on what comes next. p.s: You were right about one thing. I did not kill both of the bucks that were attached to the antlers in the photo that I posted on page 6. We did get to eat them both however, and my buddy (with whom antlers are MORE important than meat) was thrilled with that euro that I made for him. That was the first one that I did with my new power-washer. There was still skin on it and a brain in it 1 hour before that photo was taken. If you look closely, you can tell easily which one looks fresher. Happy hunting

I forgive you for this latest personal attack (calling me lazy). You may not realize it, but such attacks strengthen me and increase my own faith in God, so thank you for this one. How many people work and pay taxes for sufficient property, surrounding their houses, to hunt on ? How many of those till the soil and produce crops that holds deer on that land all the way thru hunting season ? You are missing all the work and effort that goes into that. As far as the polls go, this is where we are at right now: 72 % of those who made up their minds on this one, if antlers or meat was MORE important to them as deer hunters chose meat. Similarly, in your poll on full inclusion of crossbow, 72 % were for it. Those numbers are significant. Hillary Clinton never led polls by that amount in NY or California, a couple of states where Trump had enough sense not to waste money. I am interested in the opinion of other hunters so I have no problem asking for them. Do you get it now ?

A neighbor, up at my families place on the St Lawrence, used to clean all the 22" and larger pike that I could catch, in exchange for the Y-bones. He removed all the meat as one big slab, cutting right thru the ribs with a fillet knife, and took off the skin. Then he used a straight- razor to cut out the sections with the y-bones, which he kept to pickle. Apparently, that is some type of delicacy up there. I was thankful for the big slabs of meat with no bones. The northern pike fishing has really dropped off up there in recent years. We use to get 3 or 4 for every bass, but now we often fish all day without one. That don't bother me much, because I never learned how to get all the y-bones out of them myself and I prefer the taste of the bass in the summer. It is also nice to not have to double up the last foot of line to avoid "bite-offs", which were very common otherwise when the pike infested the waters. Finicky bass are a lot easier to entice on a single strand of fluorocarbon line in the clear water. We use to do a lot of pike fishing in May on Silver lake and I was able to get most of the y-bones out by first removing the top meat and dorsal fin. That cut exposed the tips of the y-bones and if you stayed outside of them, you could remove good sized slabs of boneless meat from the sides. I often missed a few, and after a trip to the Alex-bay hospital, when my brother-in-law got one stuck in his throat one summer, my wife said - no more pike. Now I always make sure to freeze enough bass, to last the full year, so I don't have to depend on those May and Early June pike for food. Back when we fried fish, I liked walleye and perch a little better, but bass are better baked or grilled due to their higher oil content. That and the fact that they out fight a walleye about 3:1, and are a lot easier to locate, means walleyes get very little of my time these days. A couple things I do miss from the pike is the way they hit a jig and the anticipation when bobber fishing with shiners. unlike bass, from which a strike is difficult to detect (and impossible under the influence of alcohol), the pike would practically rip the rod out of your hand when they struck. Also, you can be almost falling down drunk and still see that bobber go under with the shiner. Ah, the good old days.

Are you drinking or smoking now ?

At least you have the NYB website to go to for anti-crossbow sympathy. This latest poll indicates that the antler-worshipers might be in need of someplace like that. Do you have any idea where they might go ? The old QDMA forum was quite friendly to the antler crowd, but folded a few years ago, just about the time that the meat-movement started taking off. The die-hards like you and FSW do make for some fun, spirited discussion though, and I hope he hangs around here, even though we can all see now that you both are in the super-minority. The question is, do the polls lack credibility or do you lack the ability to handle the truth ? While I have absolutely no other use for the selfish, elitist anti-crossbow bunch, and would prefer that they head off for Oregon, I do have a strong appreciation for the antler crowd. I hope they stay around and I would be even happier if they increased in number. They have directly provided food for my family on many occasions, while the anti-crossbow bunch has done nothing but made it harder for me to get. It mostly comes down to food for me. I do like antlers though, because they indicate which deer will taste better without the need to trim off a lot of fat, and they also provide a quick way to get an approximate age on the hoof. In addition, they provide attractive wall-decorations to serve as pleasant reminders of past hunts. I also have a few "trophy" leanings. I would prefer to have mandatory 3 point on a side AR's for deer hunters of all ages in NY. That would have little effect on me personally, but it might slow some folks down on the trigger and make hunting safer for all of us. Bon-voyage

The coolest looking ice-fishing transportation that I have seen is a sled that a guy made, using a gas auger for power and steering. When you get to your spot, disconnect the power unit from the sled, attach it to the drill, and make your holes. There is a video of that one on youtube.

My favorite right now is Smirnoff "Kissed Caramel" with ice and 2 % milk. Nothing makes a smoother white-Russian and I feel obliged to support the hard-pressed dairy industry on which so many of my friends and family depend.

I have never even killed a sparrow from my bathroom window, but my bedroom window is another story. That has been mostly woodchucks & crows with the occasional coyote, fox, coon and rabbit. As far as deer, it was just one lonely button buck that rose up out of the corn and decided to step out for a bite of brassicas 5 minutes before sunset on the last day of ML a few years back. When Jesus Christ blesses me with a gift like that after a hard day at work, and with a little room left in the freezer, who am I to refuse it ? Last I checked, there is nothing unethical about hunting from a heated and well-appointed ground blind, even if it is one that you sleep in. Joke or not, your poll has been very helpful and comforting to me. Thanks again for your "pm" guidance on poll making, where I still have much to learn.

I am just looking to get a feel for the current state of deer hunting in NY and these polls are great for that. I can't help it if they have verified my pre-concieved notions, almost to the exact percentage. Thanks again for your crossbow poll. Who was the guy who said that ALL deer hunters cared more about antlers than they did about meat ? Hint: Look up one post.

I gave you my right arm, how much more do you need ?

It is hard to be humble, but I try my best. I notice you do not post too many pictures of yourself either. Do you notice the increasing importance of meat with deer hunters lately ? Has your business been effected by that ? We use to have folks dropping off deer all the time, that they did not want to eat, but the last few years, it has been almost all on me to keep the family fed. I think it is the internet, smart-phones, and the "organic" food movement that has caused the change.

With does, I assume any with fawns are are at least 2-1/2 but with bucks I go by the size of the skull. The 8-point on the left is a typical free-range 3-1/2 for this area while the 9-point on the right is a typical 2-1/2. Note the difference in the width and length of the skulls. I do not do euros of the 1-1/2's, but they are about the same amount smaller than the 2-1/2, as the 2-1/2 are than the 3-1/2. Inside your fence, I am sure you exceed the proportions of these two bucks at 2-1/2 and 1-1/2 years, but not without some heavy investment in food and upkeep. A hunting licence and a $1.00 foster slugs is a lot cheaper for me.

Everbody's tastes are different, if they were not then there would only be one kind of beer. I don't notice any difference in the taste of venison, but I do notice a big difference in texture. It is all about allowing adequate time for the rigor mortis to come out of the meat before freezing it. Rigor mortis starts as soon as the carcass begins to cool and within 8 hours, it reaches it's max. If you freeze the deer then, it will be very tough to chew, but not taste any different How long it takes to come out depends on the temperature of the surroundings and the age of the deer. Freezing will lock it in, and higher temperature will allow it to come out faster. The older the deer, the longer it takes to come out. Temperatures over 50 are bad because bacteria will grow. Most of the deer I have processed were 1-1/2 years old, however there have been a fair number of 2-1/2' s and a few 3-1/2's. The 1-1/2's take about a week at 33-50 F for the rigor mortis to come out, the 2-1/2's & 3-1/2's about 10 days. I can not tell the difference in taste or texture of any of the cuts of 1-1/2 thru 3-1/2 year old deer if they are aged this way. 6 month olds are definitely in a different class when it comes to texture. With them, the rigor mortis is minimal. I usually process them after only a day of hanging and they still melt in your mouth. Hanging deer with the hide off in an open area for extended periods is a bad idea because the outer layer will dry up and need to be cut off before processing, costing you lots of meat and time. Leaving the hide on will eliminate that, and also insulate against minor temperature swings. That said, I usually remove the hide the day prior to processing and never had them dry out much after just 24 hours without the hide on. That splits up the work load a little better and allows more time for trimming off all the fat (especially important on does). The internet is a great tool for all this stuff and probably explains why meat is starting to gain so much compared to antlers in what drives folks to hunt deer. 5 years ago, the number of those who said antlers were more important may have been higher. Times change though, and more and more people are realizing just what a fine source of "organic" meat, the free-range whitetail deer provides. The results of this poll just might indicate that the days of "antler worship" are behind us.

Thanks, I am now able to decipher what way you lean, without any assumptions or advanced math . I will take you out of the "undecided" category and put you in with the (7) others who have clearly stated that antlers are MORE important than meat to them as deer hunters. That brings the "antler" total to 19 % , Dom brings the "meat" total to 45 %, and just 36 % of those polled are still undecided. The total number polled now stands at 42. I have often said how much I appreciate the trophy hunters, and that includes those who lean that way, but I think it is worth repeating. The "baby" bucks you pass on may end up saving me a few trips to the store to buy chicken and turkey (neither of which I care for). While you are not a "pure" trophy hunter, I may be a "pure" meat hunter, at this stage of my life. I leaned a bit more towards antlers before the kids and their growing appetites. I have passed a few smaller-antlered bucks (it has been about 7 years since I killed one without at least three points on a side), but the only reason for that is because the larger-antlered ones usually come with more meat. I have yet to kill a buck of any size, and later regret it, because a larger one shows up later and I had no tag. I will admit that my effort drops way off after our year's supply of meat is secured, and I no longer have a buck tag. I do most of my own processing and that is the primary reason why I much prefer killing bucks over does. I can always get thru the bucks faster, because they always have less fat to trim. Getting that fat out makes the meat taste and keep better. I consider any season to be completely successful, only if a year's supply of meat is secured (at this point that is about 200 pounds of boneless) and both buck tags are filled. Button bucks are a nice bonus. As far as the button bucks go, the last one I shot myself was 6 years ago (on the same morning when I killed my second largest ever antlered buck in the afternoon), I also finished off a hit-and-run road-kill with a knife at the end of our driveway 4 years ago, and received a "gift" from a buddy 2 years ago, on opening day of gun season. At least we have been able to eat a couple thru the drought. We have been blessed with one about every other year for 36 years, so I am due for another this season. Good luck to you this season, regardless of what your motivation to hunt is.