wolc123

My mother in law finally sent us a picture of the THS buck. He is hanging from the same tree as my ML doe (see ML harvest thread) from my first trip up there this fall and you can again see my father in law's meat wagon in the background. That doe died a short distance behind the barn in this picture (we still loaded her in the wagon). This buck was my second easiest Adirondack recovery. After a cell phone call, my father in law was able to back the wagon up to him with his ATV, before I even finished field dressing. The antlers are small, but I like their red color. That seems kind of unique to Adirondack bucks, although the last, larger buck I killed up there had antlers colored more like the ones down home in the Southern zone.

I am hoping that at least one of my "Irish twin" daughters gets into it when they get old enough over the next two years. They sure are good at helping to empty the freezer. It would be nice if they would help me fill it.

As a pure meat hunter, this was my best year. I did not see any real large-antlered bucks. I passed a few small ones and I killed the two largest-bodied ones that I saw this year. I also killed one very large doe and another average-sized one. The best-eating deer so far (based on the tenderloins and liver) was the button buck that a friend shot on our farm (I transferred one of my DMP's to him). I was somewhat thankful to make it thru the year without a mountable buck but with plenty of venison. Now I can put that money towards a new rifle for my oldest daughter. Next year she will be old enough to hopefully help fill the freezer, not just empty it. The drought did not hurt me much because I live on a mucky, bottomland farm where corn grows better on dry years than wet ones. I lost my whole corn crop to wettness the year before and killed zero deer here. The corn I had on my best drained soil this year did not pan out very well, but in the low spots it did ok. I sprayed the weeds and wiped out the coons by trapping to save what I had until ML season. We ended up killing a total of 6 deer (3 antlered bucks, the BB, and two big does) in and around 4 acres of corn. That brought the cost of boneless venison down to less than $1.00 per pound after subtracting all input costs. I will probably have to wait for Heaven see better results than that. God sure has been blessing me down here on earth.

Short answer: NEVER "The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you" Genesis chapter 9, vs 2-3 (NIV). God has always loved us meat hunters. One thing is for sure, He has blessed me more than ever with venison this season. You are still hunting deer aren't you Chef? Good luck, and I hope there will be some more "food for you" this season.

Full implementation of the crossbow, during archery season, helps the Ohio DNR to control the deer population across the state. The crossbow is significantly more efficient, especially for killing antlerless deer, than is the vertical bow (at least it seems that we are now almost all in agreement on that). It can also be deployed in greater numbers than vertical bows, because less time and effort are required to attain proficiency with it. Greater numbers and greater efficiency mean more deer kills. Hunters want as many deer as possible, while motorists, farmers, and foresters want less. There is a balance in between, that is best for everyone and for the deer. Allowing the crossbow throughout archery season would be a big help to the DEC in achieving that balance. If the deer population in a particular zone is too low, then less antlerless permits would be issued. The biggest problem the DEC has today, is controlling the deer population in zones where the deer population is too high. Even with almost unlimited antlerless permits, the deer numbers remain out of control. Some folks are being selfish by fighting to keep from giving the DEC a tool (the crossbow) which would help them do their job.

Bowhuters who oppose full inclusion seem to be vastly outnumbered by those who support it. Clearly that is true with members of this site (as was indicated on the poll in the bowhunting section that mysteriously went away soon after those in favor opened up a 2:1 lead over those opposed). In my own group of hunting friends, more than 90% support full inclusion, and they are almost all bowhunters. Actually, that is now 100%, because the last holdout bought a crossbow last season after wounding and not recovering a buck with his compound. The 4 or 5 holdouts on this site are certainly putting up a good fight. I just want to let them know that I admire their tenacity, and wish them no ill will. I promise that I will not fight to have vertical bows banned, even though I believe they are more likely to wound deer. I have no problem with verticals as long as the required time and effort is put in (I agree that a lot more of that is needed than with a crossbow.) All this internet arguing doesn't leave me enough time to practice. I think string jump causes most of the wounded deer. String jump is only an issue when shooting at alert deer, and deer often go alert when they catch a glimpse of the draw. Tip: aim for a low-heart shot on a deer, especially if you grunt or rattle him in or if you think it might have got a glimpse of your draw. If it ducks on release, you get a center or high-lung hit. If it stays in place, you get a heart hit. In either case, a dead, easily recovered deer. If you aim center-lung on an alert deer you are asking for a shoulder blade or above the spine hit.

Happy B-day TF

If we could hear just one good reason against full inclusion that did not involve selfish elitism, or see any evidence that the majority of NY's deer hunters (or even bow-hunters) does not support it, then you anti's might have a fighting chance. As it stands right now, you seem to have just about had it. Doc's decision to side-step my pointed questions is a pretty good indication of that. Here they are one more time Doc (or any other anti who is brave enough to take them on): Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member? How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows? Have you ever missed any clean? If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease? Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand? Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy? In case you turn the selfish thing back on me as you have done repeatedly: If and when full-inclusion happens: 1.) I will welcome you and others to use a compound, recurve, or longbow during any open deer season. What weapon you choose is none of my business, as long as it is legal and you develop proficiency with it prior to use on deer. 2.) If a gun, or ML hunter push to get into archery season I will fight it, because the noise will backfire causing the deer to go nocturnal sooner. They might not know that so my fight is really for their own good. I will politely suggest that they take the archery course (I do feel that should be required for crossbows and vertical bows), and purchase one or the other if they want to partake in OUR "special" quite time.

I am also in market for a new rifle, for the primary purpose of Adirondack deer hunting. My old Ruger M77 30/06 has been getting the job done but something lighter, shorter, and more weather-resistant would be nice. Currently, I am leaning towards a Ruger American compact version in .243 caliber with a 2-7X scope. My oldest daughter will be able to hunt next season, and that will be her gun if and when she does. With a real bright scope, it would also make a good coyote gun. If she does not express much interest by late summer, I will probably go with plan B, a Marlin lever with a fixed 3X scope. The caliber of that one is a toss up between .44 mag, or 30/30. One of my primary concerns is ammo availability and price. How does the .280 compare to 30/06, 308, .270, .243, 30/30, and 44 mag in those areas?

I found one in almost the same spot a few years ago, also a mechanical. I had to trim out about 4 chops to get rid of the "questionable" meat. The buck was behaving normally, showing no signs of the injury, actually coming in on the trail of a doe I had just killed. Little did he know he would end jointing her in "deer Heaven". I think that most arrows that hit high like that, are the result of string jump when the deer quickly reacts to the sound of the bow's release, and drops down before the arrow arrives. An easy correction for that is to always aim for a low heart shot when shooting at alert deer. If the deer stays where it was, you get a quick heart kill, if it drops, you get a center, double-lung shot. If you don't know what an alert deer looks like, it is safe to assume that any buck that has responded to a grunt call or rattle will be "alert" when they get into range, as will any deer that catches a glimpse of your draw.

All bowhunters don't talk like that. The vast majority (as shown by the poll in the bowhunting section on this site which indicated 2:1 support of full crossbow inclusion) are not part of the selfish elitist group.

Maybe not, but it is evidence I can use to support my theory that the majority of New York state bowhunters support full inclusion. It also indicates the lack of support, on this site, for those who are fighting against full inclusion. And I am really enjoying carrying on this fight now that deer hunting is over for a while.

Wow you NYB guys are really grasping at straws now that your ship is going down. Chris has even forgot how to count to ten (hint - use both hands). That disappearing poll, on this site, that showed bowhunters in favor of full inclusion by a 2:1 margin over leaving it the same must be the straw that broke the camels back. Don't be too surprised when we see full inclusion next season. And don't worry, you will still be able to let loose some arrows at deer with your compounds, recurves, and longbows if you prefer. None of us are suggesting taking anything away from you. All we want is to be able to share in the early opportunities.

I am actually arguing more for others who are stuck in either the Southern or Northern zones. I have access to decent spots in both zone, so I get a total of 17 days to use my crossbow, compared to 14 for those stuck in the Southern zone and just 3 for those up North (ML kicks in up there after 3 days of crossbow). It is not selfish to try and fill more tags if you are in a zone, such as the one where I live (9F) where the DEC has struggled to get the population under control. In doing so, you may actually save a person's life by preventing a car-deer accident, and give some hungry folks some good meals. The deer here go nocturnal as soon as they realize they are being hunted, so the crossbow would be the perfect weapon for taking them out before they know whats up. I did sit thru the last two cold weekends of deer hunting (different spot every time) with my shotgun and ML, without seeing a thing, in futile effort to do my part and fill them last two tags. I will admit to some selfishness in that I would much prefer to be out there earlier when the deer still come out by day and it is not so cold for me. Still dancing DOC?

Doc, you appear to have side-stepped all these questions. Are you a professional dancer when you are not on the internet? Also, I have never said anything about not wanting to allow folks to use compounds, recurves or longbows during archery season. There are plenty of deer for all of us. The more the merrier.

Thanks, I needed that

The main reason I wanted to fill those last two tags was to donate them to feed the homeless. Is that selfish? Also, it is tough dodging deer on my drive to and from work every weekday (and to Church on Sundays). It is only by the grace of God and that my new car has great stopping distance that I have managed to avoid killing one with a vehicle myself. I did tap one lightly in the hoof this fall with my bumper. If I can save someone else from hitting one with their car is that selfish? I wonder what the widow, kids, and parents of a guy, who was killed in our town a few years ago when a deer came thru the window of his van, would think about that. Now tell me one more time who is being selfish

Wanting to open a season so that more folks can participate is the opposite of selfish. You are so blinded by your own selfishness that you can not see the forest for the trees. You will loose, hopefully by next October.

Sorry ChrisW, and thanks for the Jesus bump. We can't possibly get too much of Him just one day after Christmas. Babe Winklemann was the first one I heard apply the selfish elitism term to the minority of bowhunters who are against the crossbow. I did mention that in one of my earlier threads. If you are not a fisherman you may not have heard of him but he did a few hunting shows also. What's up Doc ? I suppose it is taking you some time to come up with your answers. Relax, the truth will set you free.

You are mostly right. The only little tweak we need is full inclusion of the cross-bow. I spent about the same number of weekends out there and had deer in range on all but the last two. We were able to harvest enough deer this year to fill my freezers as well as those of friends, neighbors, and extended family members. That crossbow inclusion would have resulted in two more DMP's filled for donation to the homeless folks. Instead, there are still way too many deer around here (based on all the tracks I just saw out on the snow having just returned from a squirrel hunt), and some folks who will be a little hungrier than they would otherwise be this winter.

Doc, The special season for the Olympic longbow shooters would be so that those who put in all the extra time and effort required to obtain world-class abilities would be rewarded with a "special season". Maybe it could start right after the Olympics wind up, in late August or so. Your logic would indicate that they deserve that. The first deer taken in NY were probably killed by native Americans with wood longbows and stone arrowheads. How about another early season for that, right before or after the Olympians get their crack? Once again, this would make sense per your logic. As far as your gun question: I would tell those folks to learn how to use a crossbow and hunt with it. The silence of the crossbow is a huge advantage when it comes to delaying the nocturnal changeover that occurs when the deer realize they are being hunted. I do agree with many who think that they should have to take an archery course and learn the difference in how an arrow kills compared to a bullet. I took that course and have killed many more deer with a vertical bow than a crossbow. Requiring that 8 hour course would go a long way towards you keeping that "peaceful time" to which you so desperately cling. Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member? How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows? Have you ever missed any clean? If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease? Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand? Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?

I wonder if the inventor is down in Key West enjoying the profits right now. $120 each on Amazon, he is probably sipping margarittas or them fancy craft beers. I do alright in upstate NY, with bucktail jigs and Genny Cream ale. Don't start drinking until you have your limit through. The first thing alcohol takes away is the ability to detect a strike.

Definitely keep us posted, especially if it works on lake trout.

Happy B-day. Too bad you could not have got in on A-day like me.

I appreciate your honesty. It is probably easier for you, being from VT, and not really having a bird in this hunt. One of our biggest problems in NY, is the steady decline in the number of hunters in the woods. In the short run, that might seem like a good thing, because it does add to the "peace and quiet" you can experience. Looking at the big picture, it is not so good, because hunters are the most important part of maintaining a strong, healthy deer herd. If hunting were not allowed, it would all be up to automobiles, starvation, disease, and predators. Put yourself in the deer's position, what would be the most painless way to go? I also understand grow's argument about deer going nocturnal and that is is tougher to kill does. Bucks have not been a problem, but I have yet to take a doe with my crossbow. I am certain that I could do it easily, if I could go after them from the start of archery season. I ended up eating two of my four DMP tags this year, and I live in one of the zones (9F) that is grossly overpopulated with deer and where the DEC has been struggling to get them under control. I have the tool to do the job (crossbow) but the selfish elite have prevented its use when it could work best on the does. I also trust the DEC, and believe they are doing all they can to keep everyone happy. They will continue to adjust DMP's, as required, to maintain healthy deer populations. If hunter's are not able to take enough deer with the current system, such as is happening right now in zone 9F,9A and others, then it is time to ease the restrictions. At this point, the restriction against the crossbow, at the start of archery season, is the single biggest one that is preventing me from doing my part. A crossbow is far more effective on doe than a vertical, because it does not need to be drawn when groups of deer are in close. It is very rare to see does traveling alone in this grossly overpopulated area. Killing a lone buck with a vertical bow is a piece of cake in comparison.