Scott Walker Stays?

[Dave]

Sorry Dave I didn't see this when I posted my last.

Yep your getting screwed!!! I live up state and I'm getting screwed too. Here they take some of our taxes and send them down state to pay for stuff down there because the people who live down state can't afford it. I wouldn't be at all surprized if some of those people you are complaining of are getting some of my money too.

Of course you believe that sombody elses job can be done for less. Yours can be done for less too.

My current job is retirement, don't know how much less it could be done for. But I am doing my very best in spite of all the taxes I pay and I am sure you pay too. Let's just vote more intelligant and make sure we get what our taxes are intended to pay. I never thought that retirement pay would ever be more than an employees final base pay. So when they retire the union want to replace them, see where I am going with this. Look what it does to the local budget one retires with a pension and medical benefits that cost more than his base pay. Then the union wants a replacement to pay more union dues, now we are really paying for two employees but only one is working. So what do we have when hundreds of public employees retire. Time to move!!!!!!!!!

[Dave]

Ha! Nice! vary eloquent and thoughful.

A broader mind might have replied "why yes bushwhack they could certainly afford those salaries with all that we pay if they were not wasteing our money at every turn in other ways too". But you've managed to narrow it down to something that the political types might find less offensive.

Sorry if you are offended, just being realistic.

[wooffer]

Come on guys teachers are NOT the only union members even if they are being targeted by the pols right now.

Here on LI teachers are some of the biggest offenders when it comes to public pay. Our public schools charge 4 times as much to eduacte a child as a private school does and they do a lousy job at it as well. I pay over $8,000.- a year just in school taxes.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Sorry if you are offended, just being realistic.

Nothing wrong with being realistic Dave so long as you explain your perspective. That post does nothing to promote understanding of your perspective; it only shows that you are holding on tightly to it.

It put me in mind of something I was told once. It went something like "never hold on too tightly to any perspective because all perspectives are only partial perspectives and will be proved wrong at some point." I've found that to be true and find it more important to understand the perspectives of others than to hold on too tightly to my own because often listening to others sheds new light on a subject and changes my perspective. That is, it makes my own more complete. I'm thinking in this instance that maybe the problem of government over spending goes deeper than we have revealed so far and isn't solely the fault of union contracts which was the point I tried but failed to make with my question.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Here on LI teachers are some of the biggest offenders when it comes to public pay. Our public schools charge 4 times as much to eduacte a child as a private school does and they do a lousy job at it as well. I pay over $8,000.- a year just in school taxes.

You will get no argument form me. We are paying way too much for inferior education. Not sure it's the teachers fault totally though. But, again I say teachers are only a small percentage of union workers would you punish all union workers because you are unhappy with education?

[adirondackbushwhack]

My current job is retirement, don't know how much less it could be done for. But I am doing my very best in spite of all the taxes I pay and I am sure you pay too. Let's just vote more intelligant and make sure we get what our taxes are intended to pay. I never thought that retirement pay would ever be more than an employees final base pay. So when they retire the union want to replace them, see where I am going with this. Look what it does to the local budget one retires with a pension and medical benefits that cost more than his base pay. Then the union wants a replacement to pay more union dues, now we are really paying for two employees but only one is working. So what do we have when hundreds of public employees retire. Time to move!!!!!!!!!

Your current job and mine are the same. Yours can be done cheaper mearly by subtracting x amount of dollars from it. In fact next year the politicians will show you how to do it for less when they raise your taxes.

The whole retirement pay thing is something I'd like to go into because you and I have different perspectives on it but I don't have time today. Maybe we can explore that another time.

I don't see any benefit in staying in NY after retirement.

[Dave]

You will get no argument form me. We are paying way too much for inferior education. Not sure it's the teachers fault totally though. But, again I say teachers are only a small percentage of union workers would you punish all union workers because you are unhappy with education?

Bushwacker if you read what Wooffer and I have posted you will see the major part of our taxes go for teachers salaries and benefits. They represent a major precentage of the public union on Long Island. Nassau and Suffolk counties combined have about 6000 cops but we have 20 times more teachers on long island with each school having hundreds of teachers. Our tax bill for fire, police, sewer, sanitation etc is about a third of the amount we pay for our school taxes. I don't mind paying the other taxes but I resent the school taxes. We pay the highest in the country but don't have the brightest kids.

[Dave]

Your current job and mine are the same. Yours can be done cheaper mearly by subtracting x amount of dollars from it. In fact next year the politicians will show you how to do it for less when they raise your taxes.

The whole retirement pay thing is something I'd like to go into because you and I have different perspectives on it but I don't have time today. Maybe we can explore that another time.

I don't see any benefit in staying in NY after retirement.

Agree

[adirondackbushwhack]

Bushwacker if you read what Wooffer and I have posted you will see the major part of our taxes go for teachers salaries and benefits. They represent a major precentage of the public union on Long Island. Nassau and Suffolk counties combined have about 6000 cops but we have 20 times more teachers on long island with each school having hundreds of teachers. Our tax bill for fire, police, sewer, sanitation etc is about a third of the amount we pay for our school taxes. I don't mind paying the other taxes but I resent the school taxes. We pay the highest in the country but don't have the brightest kids.

Just a suggestion Dave from somewhat of an outsider. I don't live in your area but i do have school tax problems. Anyway; it seems to me that your problem is an administative one rather than a teacher problem. It's up to the administrators to detremine the most cost effective use of resources and if they are not doing so than there is your problem. School costs are always higher than those of police and fire and other services. Education costs ARE out of control and each year I hear the same thing from our great leaders "we must spend more on education" . Clearly that isn't working but neither will simply going after teacher salaries. What is needed is a smarter approach across the board.

[First-light]

It's a tough nut to be able to retire on Long Island and stay in the same house you brought your kids up in. Nothing gets cheaper, that goes for everything not just what we pay in taxes. Everybody should have a plan "B" near retirement age so you don't spend your "golden days" bitching about how expensive living is. It's no way to go out!

[Dave]

Just a suggestion Dave from somewhat of an outsider. I don't live in your area but i do have school tax problems. Anyway; it seems to me that your problem is an administative one rather than a teacher problem. It's up to the administrators to detremine the most cost effective use of resources and if they are not doing so than there is your problem. School costs are always higher than those of police and fire and other services. Education costs ARE out of control and each year I hear the same thing from our great leaders "we must spend more on education" . Clearly that isn't working but neither will simply going after teacher salaries. What is needed is a smarter approach across the board.

Mostly agree

[Setters4life]

Hitler finds out that Scott Walker won the Wisconsin recall election -

[media=]

[/media]

[dave6x6]

Bushwacker, i've read your posts and it seems to me that you feel the hate for public unions is mis-directed and should instead be targeted to the politicians. The MAJOR flaw in your argument is that the unions and democratic party are fused together and rely on each other for their power. And feeding that engine of power is your taxes and mine. Bloated salaries with step increases guarantee that there will be even more union dues to be alocated to the Dems re-election caufers. They cannot be seperated and they both need to be dis-mantled. It is pure extortion and a clear money laundering scheme that walker has exposed. Our taxes pay the salaries, the union demands their dues, their dues go to elect as many communist party usa politicians as it can, and the poiticians expand their money base by creating as many public sector jobs as possible. Walker outlawing the mandatory dues will prove to be the most significant part of this fight and other states are sure to follow. And you can bet the unions will make it an ugly fight that costs tax payers even more money where ever they show up. As far as the government/media complex goes.. I don't think you know what your talking about. How can we be parroting the gov/media complex when the lefty media has refused to report the factual issues and what a farst the whole recall was. The media has been totally in bed and hoping for an embarrassing defeat of Walker and has refused to point out the greedy, destructive, politically currupt aspects of the unions. It's been one endless teacher story or firefighter story or social service calamity after another.

[sits in trees]

Your anger is misdirected. Unions and the everyday people who are members of them do not do the hiring or the firing. Do you believe that the unions are in charge and it is the politicians who are the victims of the unions? Should we believe that the unions FORCED the politicians to hire large numbers of people? Forced the politicians to pay more and more? Should we believe that the poor politicians who are the ones in charge are only innocent victims in this whole thing? Don't you think it's just a little bit funny that the government cries fowl against the unions (made up of everyday working people) and at the same time increases spending in other areas? Don't ya think its funny that eveyday people in the unions are a waste of money but political patronage no show jobs are not? Don't ya find it a little odd that everyday people who work for 25 or 30 years are thieves for getting a pension but politicians who serve for one term and get paid for life are heros?

There are a lot of governement employees. Too many; government has gotten too large. The unions didn't make it so though. Teachers are a small percentage of government employees. Teachers for the most part are good people; they are our friends and neighbors and most people, maybe including you, thought of them in that way until the government/media complex started it's campaign against them. Maybe you might recall a time before the government/media campaign against teachers when you had a different feeling for them? They are stil the same people they were before. The same is true for the police, firemen, custodians, engineers, road crews, office workers, grounds keepers, sewer workers, garbage men, and all of the rest of the union workers that the government media complex is guiding your anger towards.

As the public sector pay goes down those people will seek work in the private sector because the pay will be better. It already is now in most cases but the benefits in the public sector swayed many to work there. As the demand for private sector jobs increases the pay will decrease accordingly.

As far as BS goes I'm concerned that if you haven't heard something from one media outlet or another you will automatically consider it as BS. Instead I'd ask that you consider all perspectives instead of closing your mind to anything but one or two possibilites that you may hear from the news. In the end ALL perspectives are only partial perspectives and in the case of the media those perspectives, I'm sad to say, are directed for a purpose.

this guy is funny!!!

[sits in trees]

Come on guys teachers are NOT the only union members even if they are being targeted by the pols right now.

there the one i have to pay the most for in the way of TAXES. we have 425 teachers in our district, that is one small upstate NY town in ulster county.....we only have 14 full time cops and about 28 town highway employees. time to sharpen the ole math me friend....

[sits in trees]

Bushwacker, i've read your posts and it seems to me that you feel the hate for public unions is mis-directed and should instead be targeted to the politicians. The MAJOR flaw in your argument is that the unions and democratic party are fused together and rely on each other for their power. And feeding that engine of power is your taxes and mine. Bloated salaries with step increases guarantee that there will be even more union dues to be alocated to the Dems re-election caufers. They cannot be seperated and they both need to be dis-mantled. It is pure extortion and a clear money laundering scheme that walker has exposed. Our taxes pay the salaries, the union demands their dues, their dues go to elect as many communist party usa politicians as it can, and the poiticians expand their money base by creating as many public sector jobs as possible. Walker outlawing the mandatory dues will prove to be the most significant part of this fight and other states are sure to follow. And you can bet the unions will make it an ugly fight that costs tax payers even more money where ever they show up. As far as the government/media complex goes.. I don't think you know what your talking about. How can we be parroting the gov/media complex when the lefty media has refused to report the factual issues and what a farst the whole recall was. The media has been totally in bed and hoping for an embarrassing defeat of Walker and has refused to point out the greedy, destructive, politically currupt aspects of the unions. It's been one endless teacher story or firefighter story or social service calamity after another.

so the Dems suck, i find anyone who can still stand behind either party is totally delusional!

[dave6x6]

so the Dems suck, i find anyone who can still stand behind either party is totally delusional!

If you don't see the Dems as being a much bigger problem in this matter , then you don't know the facts Sits. don't recall saying i stand by any party. I simply pointed out the facts of where union dues (tax payer money) ends up. The overwhelming majority of political contributions go to the democratic party. They are a two headed monster that cannot survive without each other. Thats reality at this point in history, but i do believe there is a chance that over time, if union members are given a choice of where there dues money goes, you will find this political landscape will change dramatically. I do believe that there are a great many union members that do not support the socialist labor movement parties agenda and are much more conservative then their unions collective voice shows. Here is some more reality. The unions have two choices. They can fight tooth and nail to keep riding the gravy train that they have been on if they want but the problem is there is no more money to suck dry. The train has reached the station. So they can give a little now in the form of contributions to their benifits or they can run the risk of not having a job at all when Illinois, Calif. and NY go bankrupt.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

I do believe that there are a great many union members that do not support the socialist labor movement parties agenda and are much more conservative then their unions collective voice shows.

Yeah, they're called formen! haha!

[dave6x6]

Yeah, they're called formen! haha!

LOL

[5.9cummins]

Your anger is misdirected. Unions and the everyday people who are members of them do not do the hiring or the firing. Do you believe that the unions are in charge and it is the politicians who are the victims of the unions? Should we believe that the unions FORCED the politicians to hire large numbers of people? Forced the politicians to pay more and more? Should we believe that the poor politicians who are the ones in charge are only innocent victims in this whole thing? Don't you think it's just a little bit funny that the government cries fowl against the unions (made up of everyday working people) and at the same time increases spending in other areas? Don't ya think its funny that eveyday people in the unions are a waste of money but political patronage no show jobs are not? Don't ya find it a little odd that everyday people who work for 25 or 30 years are thieves for getting a pension but politicians who serve for one term and get paid for life are heros?

There are a lot of governement employees. Too many; government has gotten too large. The unions didn't make it so though. Teachers are a small percentage of government employees. Teachers for the most part are good people; they are our friends and neighbors and most people, maybe including you, thought of them in that way until the government/media complex started it's campaign against them. Maybe you might recall a time before the government/media campaign against teachers when you had a different feeling for them? They are stil the same people they were before. The same is true for the police, firemen, custodians, engineers, road crews, office workers, grounds keepers, sewer workers, garbage men, and all of the rest of the union workers that the government media complex is guiding your anger towards.

As the public sector pay goes down those people will seek work in the private sector because the pay will be better. It already is now in most cases but the benefits in the public sector swayed many to work there. As the demand for private sector jobs increases the pay will decrease accordingly.

As far as BS goes I'm concerned that if you haven't heard something from one media outlet or another you will automatically consider it as BS. Instead I'd ask that you consider all perspectives instead of closing your mind to anything but one or two possibilites that you may hear from the news. In the end ALL perspectives are only partial perspectives and in the case of the media those perspectives, I'm sad to say, are directed for a purpose.

First off i am a public employee and a member of a union (NOT BY CHOICE!!!- manditory dues). If i had a choice i would not be in it. I work with a small group who does not produce alot of votes / union membership. Guess what happens every time we go to the union with a problem? We are given a tub of vasoline and told sorry.

I am not saying that political appointees are the answear. They are the other half of the problem (the unions being the first).

Currently i have a employee who needs to be fired because they are useless. I have been building my case / documentation / pile of evendence for a year now and i am just to the point where i may be able to get some disiplianry action. This individual would have lasted 1-2 days in the private sector. Why is the burden of proof so high - THE F@#%$@# UNION!!!! Everyone in my group (other supervisors, managment, even co workers say that said employee couldnt find there way out of a paper bag, but they are still here). I forsee 3-4 more years of this crap before i can actually get back to what i am supposed to be doing.

I end up racking up extra hours left and right for the work documenting said employee. I dont get over time, comp time or any other benifit - except time away from my wife and kids. The reason i do it is because it is what needs to be done and its what the previous three supervisors could not or would not do.

What it boils down to is accountability or the lack there of. Both for the workers and politicans. Get the unions out of the way so we can hold employees accountable and whitle down the managment at the top and make them directly accountable to the voters.

I have no problem with public employee pay or benifits so long as those employees produce results. I dont care if your public or private if you do good work you should be rewarded for it. In the public sector if you cant hold someone acountable they slack and productivity goes down. The easier thing to do is hire another person to pick up the slack and the cycle repeats. Or GOD forbid you promot incompetance which i have seen more than once because its easier to promote than fire only compunding the issue.

I also have 4 generations of teachers in my family so i think i have a fairly good handle on that as well and i would say all the above applies just the same. My great grandmother use to teach a class of 50 kindergarteners. No aids or help just 100 pounds of little old lady, my mom taught a class of 18-22 1st graders and had the cops called on her, spit at, bitten, chairs / desk thrown at her. Why? accountability or the lack of it. But thats more of a society issue and a rant for another day.

Unions are directly tied to the democratic party and the politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!

I applaud Scott Walker - i wish he were the NY govenor. He didnt destroy these peoples lives, they still have better than average benfits and a JOB which is more than alot of people can say in this country.

Rant over

Edited June 10, 2012 by 5.9cummins

[Larry]

Hey my wife works with this lady who said her husband work on the thruway in a toll booth and makes $30 an hour. If that’s true that’s a $10 an hour job tops. I should have saved my money on collage and went to work in a toll booth I would be making more money with better benefits, and I could retire before I expire.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Bushwacker, i've read your posts and it seems to me that you feel the hate for public unions is mis-directed and should instead be targeted to the politicians. The MAJOR flaw in your argument is that the unions and democratic party are fused together and rely on each other for their power. And feeding that engine of power is your taxes and mine. Bloated salaries with step increases guarantee that there will be even more union dues to be alocated to the Dems re-election caufers. They cannot be seperated and they both need to be dis-mantled. It is pure extortion and a clear money laundering scheme that walker has exposed. Our taxes pay the salaries, the union demands their dues, their dues go to elect as many communist party usa politicians as it can, and the poiticians expand their money base by creating as many public sector jobs as possible. Walker outlawing the mandatory dues will prove to be the most significant part of this fight and other states are sure to follow. And you can bet the unions will make it an ugly fight that costs tax payers even more money where ever they show up. As far as the government/media complex goes.. I don't think you know what your talking about. How can we be parroting the gov/media complex when the lefty media has refused to report the factual issues and what a farst the whole recall was. The media has been totally in bed and hoping for an embarrassing defeat of Walker and has refused to point out the greedy, destructive, politically currupt aspects of the unions. It's been one endless teacher story or firefighter story or social service calamity after another.

I agree with much of what you are saying and there are certainly large numbers of corrupt union officials to go along with the corrupt politicians. BUT Walker hasn't prosecuted the corrupt union officials or politicians instead he has punished the poor working stiffs who are merely members of those unions. Had Walker went after the corrupt leadership both in unions and government I would support him but instead he seeks only to injure the working people who are members of the unions. The media is biased too as we all SHOULD know.

[adirondackbushwhack]

First off i am a public employee and a member of a union (NOT BY CHOICE!!!- manditory dues). If i had a choice i would not be in it. I work with a small group who does not produce alot of votes / union membership. Guess what happens every time we go to the union with a problem? We are given a tub of vasoline and told sorry.

I am not saying that political appointees are the answear. They are the other half of the problem (the unions being the first).

Currently i have a employee who needs to be fired because they are useless. I have been building my case / documentation / pile of evendence for a year now and i am just to the point where i may be able to get some disiplianry action. This individual would have lasted 1-2 days in the private sector. Why is the burden of proof so high - THE F@#%$@# UNION!!!! Everyone in my group (other supervisors, managment, even co workers say that said employee couldnt find there way out of a paper bag, but they are still here). I forsee 3-4 more years of this crap before i can actually get back to what i am supposed to be doing.

I end up racking up extra hours left and right for the work documenting said employee. I dont get over time, comp time or any other benifit - except time away from my wife and kids. The reason i do it is because it is what needs to be done and its what the previous three supervisors could not or would not do.

What it boils down to is accountability or the lack there of. Both for the workers and politicans. Get the unions out of the way so we can hold employees accountable and whitle down the managment at the top and make them directly accountable to the voters.

I have no problem with public employee pay or benifits so long as those employees produce results. I dont care if your public or private if you do good work you should be rewarded for it. In the public sector if you cant hold someone acountable they slack and productivity goes down. The easier thing to do is hire another person to pick up the slack and the cycle repeats. Or GOD forbid you promot incompetance which i have seen more than once because its easier to promote than fire only compunding the issue.

I also have 4 generations of teachers in my family so i think i have a fairly good handle on that as well and i would say all the above applies just the same. My great grandmother use to teach a class of 50 kindergarteners. No aids or help just 100 pounds of little old lady, my mom taught a class of 18-22 1st graders and had the cops called on her, spit at, bitten, chairs / desk thrown at her. Why? accountability or the lack of it. But thats more of a society issue and a rant for another day.

Unions are directly tied to the democratic party and the politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!

I applaud Scott Walker - i wish he were the NY govenor. He didnt destroy these peoples lives, they still have better than average benfits and a JOB which is more than alot of people can say in this country.

Rant over

And now let me give you a glimpse of public employment without unions. Every time the leadership changes from one party to another you are likely to get fired. If a politicians buddy or family member wants your job you are fired. If your boss is an A HOLE and decides he doesn't really like you for any reason (maybe you're just better at your job than he is) you are fired. You can be the boss today, a pee on tomorrow and the boss again the day after that. If you don't do what the boss says even if it is illegal you are fired and believe me the bosses will take full advantage of that, they have in the past before the unions and will do it again once they can get rid of them. So yes sometimes it's hard to get rid of dead wieght and the corrupt union heads don't want to do their jobs but without the union you might not be there to complain about things at all. Be carful what you wish for once the union is gone you're going to have to kiss some serious ass if you want to stay working there and even then you can be gone in a heartbeat. I've seen public employment without union protection and if you think things are corrupt now wait until you get a taste of that.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Hey my wife works with this lady who said her husband work on the thruway in a toll booth and makes $30 an hour. If that’s true that’s a $10 an hour job tops. I should have saved my money on collage and went to work in a toll booth I would be making more money with better benefits, and I could retire before I expire.

the key word there is IF

[adirondackbushwhack]

so the Dems suck, i find anyone who can still stand behind either party is totally delusional!

YES!!!