Looks like the NRA can lose.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Did I actually read that someone said something to the effect of "why do they need all of that money" and another "you dont need that type of gun" in the same thread? Why is that not surprising?

[Caveman]

As for gun rights.  There's a constitutional amendment that's not going anywhere to protect them backed by two very recent Supreme Court decisions...not the NRA.

The interesting thing is that there is so much that can be done to the practicality of gun ownership and usage that can work around the 2nd amendment while leaving it completely intact. As one simple example, the amendment speaks of arms, but says nothing about the ammunition. It speaks of the right to bear arms, but does not speak about the harrassing regulations and restrictions and costs that can be levied or applied to such activities. There are no limitations expressed or implied about what arms, or the specific nature of those arms that we have a right to. I think you get the drift of what I am getting at. There are ways of making a right impractical to exercise. Many of those ways have already been used. Many more are being developed all the time.

Doc, I will agree and leave you with this comment (not sure where you stand on constitutional interpretation).  That is the sad consequence of the conservative favored "dead constitution"

Do we want the constitution to live and change or die? It seems many want the parts they like to die and the parts they don't to evolve until they like it...then they'll advocate a dead constitution once again.  It seems to me many would like to have their constitutional cake and eat it too.

[Mr VJP]

That has got to be the most mis-educated comment on the US Constitution I have ever heard.  You are obviously not a constitutional scholar.

[Caveman]

That has got to be the most mis-educated comment on the US Constitution I have ever heard.  You are obviously not a constitutional scholar.

Mr VJP, please enlighten me as to how that statement was misguided.  Other than the fact that you don't like the result of logical reasoning. 

[Mr VJP]

Not misguided, mis-educated.  Were did you study constitutional law?

[Caveman]

I studied constitutional, criminal, and procedural law at the University at Albany.  I'll graduate in May and continue my education at the University at Buffalo Law School fall of 2012.  Where did you study?

Oh and perhaps you can point out the flaw in my mis-educated logic for me?

[Mr VJP]

University of Maryland, College Park & Georgetown Univ Law School.

Put those comments on a paper when you get to Buffalo and let your professor explain it to you.  He may have the time and he gets paid to do it, I don't.

[nyantler]

Haha That ought to shut the young lad up for a bit..

[nyantler]

I studied constitutional, criminal, and procedural law at the University at Albany.  I'll graduate in May and continue my education at the University at Buffalo Law School fall of 2012.  Where did you study?

Oh and perhaps you can point out the flaw in my mis-educated logic for me?

I have a feeling you missed a couple important classes there junior or weren't paying much attention.. My degree is in marketing with a minor in philosophy from Niagara University... and I remember taking constitutuional law and I never heard the crap you're spouting... what I do remember is thinking I had all the answers too at 20 years old...

[Caveman]

Nope not at all NY Antler.  But nice try  I think you don't want to point out the flaw because you have no answer.  God forbid you should be mistaken.  I don't claim to know everything.  I have a lot yet to learn and I look forward to learning it.  But the statement you're disagreeing with is not legal, it's logic.  People seem to want the constitution to both live and die at the same time and that makes no sense to me at least.  So perhaps you can explain how it does? 

Consider it a chance to put a young, naive, free thinker in his place ;D 

[Caveman]

I studied constitutional, criminal, and procedural law at the University at Albany.  I'll graduate in May and continue my education at the University at Buffalo Law School fall of 2012.  Where did you study?

Oh and perhaps you can point out the flaw in my mis-educated logic for me?

I have a feeling you missed a couple important classes there junior or weren't paying much attention.. My degree is in marketing with a minor in philosophy from Niagara University... and I remember taking constitutuional law and I never heard the crap you're spouting... what I do remember is thinking I had all the answers too at 20 years old...

Now you need to be old to have an opinion and defend it?  Weren't you criticizing me for being a "fence-rider" as you so eloquently put it? Or should people only defend themselves if they hold your beliefs?

[Caveman]

University of Maryland, College Park & Georgetown Univ Law School.

Put those comments on a paper when you get to Buffalo and let your professor explain it to you.  He may have the time and he gets paid to do it, I don't.

 

And all arguing aside what did you study at College Park? I ask because today that's the only school of criminal justice ranked higher than Albany but I've never talked to anyone who went there.

[nyantler]

I studied constitutional, criminal, and procedural law at the University at Albany.  I'll graduate in May and continue my education at the University at Buffalo Law School fall of 2012.  Where did you study?

Oh and perhaps you can point out the flaw in my mis-educated logic for me?

I have a feeling you missed a couple important classes there junior or weren't paying much attention.. My degree is in marketing with a minor in philosophy from Niagara University... and I remember taking constitutuional law and I never heard the crap you're spouting... what I do remember is thinking I had all the answers too at 20 years old...

Now you need to be old to have an opinion and defend it?  Weren't you criticizing me for being a "fence-rider" as you so eloquently put it? Or should people only defend themselves if they hold your beliefs?

Still think you are one... you're just arguing harder about being a fence rider

[Caveman]

I studied constitutional, criminal, and procedural law at the University at Albany.  I'll graduate in May and continue my education at the University at Buffalo Law School fall of 2012.  Where did you study?

Oh and perhaps you can point out the flaw in my mis-educated logic for me?

I have a feeling you missed a couple important classes there junior or weren't paying much attention.. My degree is in marketing with a minor in philosophy from Niagara University... and I remember taking constitutuional law and I never heard the crap you're spouting... what I do remember is thinking I had all the answers too at 20 years old...

Now you need to be old to have an opinion and defend it?  Weren't you criticizing me for being a "fence-rider" as you so eloquently put it? Or should people only defend themselves if they hold your beliefs?

Still think you are one... you're just arguing harder about being a fence rider

You know the difference between you and me?  We both hold different views, we know that.  But I don't dislike anyone for that difference.  I'll admit that some conservative policies make sense, but I  don't agree with the ideology as a whole.  You and especially Mr VJP seem to genuinely dislike people for holding different views.  And that is something I don't understand coming from a party with largely Christian affiliations and in my opinion, that's the real problem with today's government. 

[nyantler]

I can't say that I dislike anyone young man (well maybe Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried)... and I certainly don't dislike you... I don't even know you.. it would take far more than an opinion on this forum to make me dislike someone.. I have the same arguments with close friends who have differences of opinion on certain subjects... don't take it personal.

[Caveman]

I can't say that I dislike anyone young man (well maybe Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried)... and I certainly don't dislike you... I don't even know you.. it would take far more than an opinion on this forum to make me dislike someone.. I have the same arguments with close friends who have differences of opinion on certain subjects... don't take it personal.

Well then I apologize.  I suppose I get annoyed by the patronizing tone I've encountered.  We've established that I'm a young man.  That means that I have to work twice as hard, know twice as much to be taken seriously.  And I work very hard to do that.  I take every law class i can, learn the statutes, memorize the legal principles, study the cases even when they're not required.  And yet when I debate like this the response is still, "he's young what does he know?" I get blown off in a way that adults don't.  So I suppose I took the comments about my age personally for that reason. 

[Mr VJP]

I don't dislike anybody Wildcat, but I do dislike certain views and opinions with a passion.  That's just a part of my Hungarian/Vlad The Impaler ancestry.

You and I could sit together at the bar and discuss hunting or fishing in a very cordial manner.  But I think you would aggravate me to no end discussing freedom, equality and rights.  Mainly because I feel those things leave no room for opinion.  They are defined by law.

But know this, if I did not like you, I would not talk to you.  And since I have just posted this reply, I think you are safe.

[nyantler]

one thing I learned as an older man is that I should have shut up and listened more as a yonger man.. now i think I have earned the right to speak because I have experienced much more.. and still i know enough to shut up and listen sometimes when someone older than me is talking... now that doesn't mean the older guys are always right.. but I promise that you have nothing to teach me about life, but I'm sure your grandfather might

[Caveman]

one thing I learned as an older man is that I should have shut up and listened more as a yonger man.. now i think I have earned the right to speak because I have experienced much more.. and still i know enough to shut up and listen sometimes when someone older than me is talking... now that doesn't mean the older guys are always right.. but I promise that you have nothing to teach me about life, but I'm sure your grandfather might

If he was still alive I bet he wouldn't.  He was a dirty Democrat 

But still, young or old everyone has a right to be heard.  I may not have the same amount of years here as you do but i guarantee I and people my age have something valuable to add to a discussion.  Though it's probably hard to hear me from up on your high horse. 

I'm not gonna take anything away from you, you're clearly an intelligent man, and it has been fun debating with you because of this.  You made some good arguments.  Granted, I didn't agree with them but that's what makes a debate a debate.  But admit it, you had it in your head from the first post, I had nothing valuable to contribute because I'm a young man.  That's the problem here and everywhere.  People need to realize that like it or not my generation is the future, and generally speaking we're better educated than those generations before us.  So rather than tell us to shut up and listen, try listening yourself, we may surprise you. 

[Mr VJP]

On the contrary Wildcat, what you say is of great interest to me.  We need to know what manner of corruption is being stuffed into your generation's heads so we know how to save you from yourselves!

;D

[nyantler]

On the contrary Wildcat, what you say is of great interest to me.  We need to know what manner of corruption is being stuffed into your generation's heads so we know how to save you from yourselves!

;D

I couldn't have said it better myself..

[Caveman]

On the contrary Wildcat, what you say is of great interest to me.  We need to know what manner of corruption is being stuffed into your generation's heads so we know how to save you from yourselves!

;D

Funny.  But as you probably guessed I'll disagree.  You'd be interested to know that I was a registered Democrat when I left for college and became a conservative in the first few months and stayed a conservative through the majority of my three years there.  But the only useful thing I learned in undergrad is how to think for myself.  So when a liberal professor makes a comment I am able to consider "is that something I personally believe in?" The answer is usually no.  But by the same token when conservatives such as yourselves speak I am able to ask the same question of myself.  I assure you I'm not brainwashed.  I was when I was a conservative.  But my libertarian affiliations are my own beliefs.  I've had both liberal and conservative professors and I've disagreed with both. 

I did not vote for Obama and a girl at my school accused me of being a racist.  That offended me because she automatically assumed that I was not intelligent enough to look past his race and dislike his political ideals.  I'm getting the same vibe here.  It is insulting that you don't think I am intelligent to believe something because it aligns with my morals and the country I would like to live in.  You assume I must have had it crammed down my throat. 

[Mr VJP]

Lighten up Wildcat.  That was inserted for levity.  Have you no sense of self deprecating humor?  Offense can not be given, only taken.  You would do well to remember that.

I am truly interested in what young people think and have to say.  But to be honest, a lot of what I hear scares me.

[Caveman]

Lighten up Wildcat.  That was inserted for levity.  Have you no sense of self deprecating humor?  Offense can not be given, only taken.  You would do well to remember that.

I am truly interested in what young people think and have to say.  But to be honest, a lot of what I hear scares me.

Maybe it was you referring to me as "nothing" earlier that's got my figurative panties in a bunch.  Either way its in the past.

But in all honesty it's ok that my opinions scare you as your ideas certainly terrify me 

[jimbodwb]

Wildcats I would just like to say bravo to you. You debated about your views and did not back down when bullied with the age old argument of "what does he know, he is just a kid". I still consider myself young(mid 30's) but I am a free thinker just like you. I agree with just about everything you have said on this thread. Mr VJP is just a conspiracy theorist who probably believes the world is gonna end in 2012 but not before the govt takes all our guns, kills all our elderly, and burns the constitution on live TV. I prefer to live my life thinking for myself and making my own decisions based on fact and logic not hearsay, conspiracy theories, and religion.