another question in my li quest

[papabear]

hay why not just ask the land owner for permission to hunt there Thats what I did took me all summer and now I have a spot to goose hunt on 25 acres of private land I am the only person out side there family to hunt there he even went as far as putting in a pit blind or me to fix up any way i want his own son-inlaw and grandson don't hunt it with out me there

just ask it amazing what could happen

papabear

[LIHUNT]

710.30 is also a statement form used by police when taken a written or oral statement about an incident that occurred.  Basically the who, what, when and where  that a person must sign for the charge to be brought on the trespasser. An officer can’t just merely lock you up for being on someone else’s property it’s a citizen’s arrest and things like 710.30 and affidavits must be completed.  Let me guess you got your definition of 710.30 from Google, right?

[cbx46]

The land in which I was asking about is owned by a coporation not an individual I highly doubt permision would ever be given I also doubt getting caught by an "owner" would ever happpen.  So I think if their is a legal way to hunt until caught then have a get out of jail pass in your back pocket do it.  If you ask and are told no then what is your excuse?  Shame on the government for not opening all state, county,etc... to hunting.

[LIHUNT]

Hey man, to each their own.  I have to side with finfeather on this one.  I just dont like to feel like im being sneaky about an area while im hunting.  My rule of thumb is that if i dont feel comfortable leaving my truck out where im hunting, and need to get dropped off or park in a "legal" area just to walk to a questionable area then im not hunting there.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

LIHUNT,

Yes I did google those numbers. I don't just dismiss what someone tells me because I think I know. I research these things because I want to be in the right when I am walking through the woods with a weapon. Law and order all the way I say. That being said, just because you can make a citizens arrest does not mean a crime has been committed. You are absolving the state (county in our case) of liability should the arrest be unlawful (false arrest). You would probably get away with it because most people with the money to retain a lawyer for the purpose of suing you would be hunting on club land or their own private land. I have caught someone rifling through the glove compartment of my wife's car in my driveway and the police would not arrest him because he had not taken anything and my property was not posted. It is now.

If you have a reference to a part of the penal code which states that hunting on undeveloped, unoccupied, unposted land is illegal I would appreciate your sharing this information as a fellow hunter. I am not stating my case to be argumentative. I believe strongly that this is the law as written and my experiences have born this out.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

I never feel as though I am sneaking when I hunt. That would be immoral even if it were legal. We may be talking about different types of areas. I sometimes hunt where there is mixed county, town, private land which is parceled into as small as .18 acres to 30 acres but it is completely undeveloped and I have never seen another person in many days of being on it. I know others hunt it because I have seen stands and i have picked them up on a game camera. If it is legal and not harming anyone i don't see the problem.

The border of this property is less than 250 feet from my home and there are deer in my backyard every night eating my grapevines. If i wanted to just break the law or just shoot a deer, I could do so through an open window from the comfort of my couch.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

CBX,

If the property is not posted you should be OK. Just be sure there are no local ordinances you may be violating and you may want to carry a copy of the law with you to prevent you from being arrested even falsely. I would go so far as to find the DEC officer responsible for your area and speak to them as they are generally more informed about the law regarding hunting/trespassing. You will most likely be reassured after speaking to them.

[finfeathr]

The land in which I was asking about is owned by a coporation not an individual I highly doubt permision would ever be given I also doubt getting caught by an "owner" would ever happpen.  So I think if their is a legal way to hunt until caught then have a get out of jail pass in your back pocket do it.  If you ask and are told no then what is your excuse?  Shame on the government for not opening all state, county,etc... to hunting.

You are right, you probably won't be granted permission from a corporation, they would have too much liability to contend with. You may not get caught by an owner, but a security person will, as soon as someone from that corp. realizes that people are using the property. There is no "legal" way to hunt that property without permission, no matter what anyone with google experience tells you. You guys are proving my point again, you are using a clause in the law as a "get outta jail free" card. To answer you directly, if they deny you permission, then you don't use the land, period. As I stated earlier, it seems that alot of guys are afraid of being told "no", so they forego asking permission, and just tresspass thinking they can bluff thier way out of it with a little law knowledge...you originally asked this question because your buddy told you it was ok, but you weren't sure,right? Well, after 3 pages, it seems pretty clear you are playing with fire. Some guys don't mind looking over thier shoulder while hunting, but I can't fathom that approach, realistically.

Believe me, I understand your frustration with finding open land. There simply isn't any around. It is either privately owned, county owned, or state owned. On L.I., I know that most state and county land requires an access pass to legally use it, either daily co-op, season co-op, DEC wetlands access permit, green key pass, etc.

The bottom line is, if you don't have permission to use the land, then you don't belong there, plain and simple. Venturing onto property without contacting the owner first, with a pocket full of printed out and highlighted google pages seems to indicate that you went through alot of trouble to cover your ass, should you get caught. I would think that law enforcement would likely see it the same way. Instead of going through all the trouble to try and finagle your way out afterwards, I would expend that energy to secure permission first. That way, you will not have to carry a law book around with you all day, and you can actually enjoy yourself in the woods, which is why we all hunt in the first place.

Like someone else said, do what you want, but you are rolling the dice here, in my opinion. Remember, this is L.I., land of litigation, lawsuits, anti-hunters, anti-gunners, and bunny huggers, be careful.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

Mr. Fin,

I have given no less than 3 examples of real world experience in my posts. Saying that I have "google experience" is just unfair. Google is a tool. It allows one to find things like the actual written law. No fine print. No escape clause. The actual law says that the property the OP describes, he is granted license and privilege to be on. It is plain and simple. It may not be what you want to hear or what you believe but it is true.

[Ford]

The law states that if is not posted and unimproved,(and no fence) it is legal to hunt there. Pretty simple really. I have a buddy that hunts all the nooks and crannies on LI. He has had run ins with anti-hunters, never property owners though.

The antis have called the police on him a few times. Even though they were the ones breaking the law. The officers in the area seem to understand the law pretty well. They have basically sided with him.

If someone owns a property that they do not want hunted, they can post it like I do.

That is not to say a landowner can not tell you to leave. If they do, and you don't, that is trespassing, and you can be arrested.

[bpb]

With the climate on LI I would not trust anyone in law enforcement. That area of the state goes out of its way to look for people to arrest who own a firearm.

[finfeathr]

The fundamental thing that you are not getting here is: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO USE THE LAND, YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE. It is not ethical or legal to do so. Some of you guys love to post examples of how you or someone you know got or gets away with it, and that's wonderful, I'm happy for you. I sincerely doubt that the day your luck runs out, you will run to the computer and type out a headline that someone kicked you out or had you arrested. Coming on a public forum and advocating that old "if it don't have a posted sign on it, you can hunt it" logic isn't a good way to go. I realize that this justification is bourne from frustration over losing hunting areas, and there not being enough areas to go to, but it just doesn't seem right that because YOU deem it "unimproved" or "vacant", it is yours to do as you see fit.

As far as posting, many landowners realize quickly what a joke that is. I used to post land for a corporation for 20 years. I can't tell you how many times I would put posted signs up, and return 3 days later to see most of them torn down, and people parked in spots that" weren't posted". I would also encounter the ones that said the old"I've been hunting here for years" speach. You see, whether it was posted or not didn't seem to matter...they hunted there in the past, and it was" their" spot! The fact that it was posted and someone elses property had no bearing on the issue, in thier eyes. They had to go as far as laminating signs onto steel plates and lag bolting them to trees, and you know what? there were still those that would scour the property untul they found a spot without a sign and do the old "there was no sign" story. Hell, I had a guy in a climbing stand on the same tree as a potsed sign tell me he didn't see a sign...

Is it such a big deal to do the right thing, do your homework, and get permission before venturing out? Most of you defending the "unimproved" land access are afraid to approach the landowner for fear of being denied access, and then you would have no recourse if you continued to use the land and got busted. Ignorance is bliss, but it certainly puts you back into the looking over your shoulder category..not a great way to spend the day.

Bottom line again being, if you are on property that you do not own, or have permission to be on, you shouldn't be there. We all know that. Let's not kid ourselves, here. Arming yourself with a defense just in case you get caught is fundamentally wrong, and deep down, you all know it. How about giving the landowner the respect they deserve, and do the right thing from the get-go?

I'll tell you one thing, even if you don't gain access, you will go a long way on promoting good hunter/landowner relations, and leave the owner with the pleasant thought that some people still do the right thing. Remember, each one of us represents ALL hunters when we are afield..

Do the right thing.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

You can say it is illegal or unethical until you are blue in the face but the fact is you can not refer to a specific law because you are wrong. It is not getting away with it. No need to look over your shoulder.

I am not afraid to approach the land owners, but there is no need to. And you are right about one thing. If they are asked and say no, then you are trespassing. I think you really know the truth.

Prove me wrong.

[finfeathr]

you're kidding, right? You don't ask permission because you don't feel you have to? My stance has always been: DO THE RIGHT THING!  If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were the landowner, I am absolutely certain you would feel differently about this issue. You aren't getting me to buy the story that you don't ask because you legally feel you don't have to..let's cut to the chase...you don't ask because you are pretty certain you would be turned down, it's that simple. So, you hunt where you want and just cut out the mddleman? Is that the logic?

You can spout legalities and googalities 'til your heart's content, but it is still wrong to be on someone else's property without thier permission.

I certainly would not want to deal with this kind of stuff when I went afield. It is a hell of alot easier to produce proof of eligability for being on the property, in the form of written permission, than it is to start spewing legalese to the person that finds you there.

I know you think I am just arguing to keep an argument going, after all, this is the internet, but did you ever stop and think that maybe the reason that it's so hard to get access to available land, is situations just like this one? I know I would not be a happy camper if I owned a tract of land and had to deal with someone telling me they had a right to be on my land because a posted sign was missing, or I didn't "improve" the land in thier definition.

I have said it over and over..each one of us is an emmissary for ALL hunters when we are out there. Why is it so damn hard to just do the right thing, and ask first?

[LIHUNT]

Not sure where you got that exact information from Ford but i know of a piece of property 18acers out east where it is not posted and no house and in 5 years 7 guys have been charged with trespassing.  The home owner has a notorized letter and a copy of the trespass affidavidt signed stating that no one had permissioin to be on the propertry and will be charged with trespass. The reason for no signs up is that he feels it looks "tacky" and out of those 7 charged, 7 had to pay fines in the court

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

You know I am starting to think you are arguing for arguments sake because I have explained that there are over 50 landowners with private, county and town interspersed. It is not feasible to ask permission.

The land is virgin woods. It would be considered unimproved by anyone's definition including I believe yours.

You say if the shoe was on the other foot, and I have already said if it were my land it would be posted.

I am not talking about finding a spot with a missing or removed sign which is what you make it seem like. Its the woods with no signs around the entire border. I am never worried about "getting caught". I am not doing anything wrong.

You make it sound like knowing the law is a bad thing. Well I think that is what the OP asked for.

LI,

A lot of east end towns have established their own rules on hunting which is rare to the west. I believe Southampton town is one of the only ones who own all of their bottom lands in their waterways for example. You can't just hunt over water like most places. One would be wise to check local ordinances for any prohibitions.

[finfeathr]

I would love to look up these parcels of land that have private, county, andtown land "interspersed", on L.I... I already stated that almost all state and county land on L.I. needs some sort of access permit, either Green key, DEC access permit, etc, so you would be covered if you had those access permits, unless of course you hunted the interspersed private land without permission.

Why is it un-feasable to get permission from a private landowner simply because his land is interspersed with county land? They still have to pay taxes on it, so the info is available. Do the right thing and ask.

By the way, just for the hell of it, I had an off-duty detective in the shop today, and showed him this post. He raised his eyebrows, chuckled, and said: "that is exactly how a little bit of legal knowledge gets alot of people into trouble".

Do whatever you are comfortable with, it seems to be working for you somewhat, so far.. just remember, you are representing us all when you are out there..good luck.

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

I do always try to remember that we represent the whole no matter what. I wouldn't hunt where I thought I had a chance of being arrested for it but I suppose I could be surprised. But they would have to arrest the brother of a Nassau county detective!

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

Fin, whenever you would like, you can walk this property with me and see if you feel you are truly trespassing.

[nyantler]

I do always try to remember that we represent the whole no matter what. I wouldn't hunt where I thought I had a chance of being arrested for it but I suppose I could be surprised. But they would have to arrest the brother of a Nassau county detective!

Just as a sidebar.. one thing I'm sure you know for sure about the land is that someone owns the land.. and that someone is not you... what makes you think that you are not trespassing? you know it isn't yours so you should ask permission first... just because you don't feel like you are trespassing doesn't mean you aren't. :

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

No BE, I feel that if the people who owned the land cared if anyone walked it or even harvested game, they would post it. I know I would if I cared. As I said before, I hqve taken the time to research the owners and many are city dwellers, out of staters and the like. No locals. So my reasoning is they bought or inherited the land as an investment since it is parceled like a neighborhood development.

I don't feel like I wknd devaluing their land by hunting it. I don't litter, not even shell casings, and I don't feel I am taking their game as I am upland hunting rabbit and turkey. I wknd pretty sure people in Brooklyn with LLC after their name are not even aware there are turkey there.

If I were ever to encounter an owner who objected, that would be my last hunt there. The fact is that knowing that it is private property is not what the law requires but whether that private owner cares enough to post it.

If they don't then who is being wronged?

[NYBowhunter]

No BE, I feel that if the people who owned the land cared if anyone walked it or even harvested game, they would post it. I know I would if I cared. As I said before, I hqve taken the time to research the owners and many are city dwellers, out of staters and the like. No locals. So my reasoning is they bought or inherited the land as an investment since it is parceled like a neighborhood development.

I don't feel like I wknd devaluing their land by hunting it. I don't litter, not even shell casings, and I don't feel I am taking their game as I am upland hunting rabbit and turkey. I wknd pretty sure people in Brooklyn with LLC after their name are not even aware there are turkey there.

If I were ever to encounter an owner who objected, that would be my last hunt there. The fact is that knowing that it is private property is not what the law requires but whether that private owner cares enough to post it.

If they don't then who is being wronged?

You know whats the sad part is that you actually believe what you are doing is right.....thats pretty sad....You have been pretty lucky so far......I hope you cross the wrong guy one day...... Go buy your own hunting land and pay taxes like every other hard working person. You just dont get it.....keep thinking in your little mind that what your doing is right....Best of luck and thanks for giving hunters a bad name. Sorry for being harsh, but I hate tresspassers..........you are a tresspasser right???

[jjkoe3 (googler)]

Sir, people with little minds do not engage in intelligent debate. They have their own opinions and facts do not enter into the equation. I don't know exactly what you mean by hoping I cross the wrong guy one day but I infer that you wish me harm which I would never wish on another person who has never harmed me or my family.

You have a great day.

[finfeathr]

I certainly would never insinuate that harm should come to you for any reason,Joe. It still is not right to be somewhere you don't have permission to be, though. Hunting it until someone kicks you off said property is kinda silly. It seems like you acknowledge it's trespassing, but that won't stop you from doing it until someone objects. If it's working for you, fine, but it's still wrong.

As a side note, I don't think that the landowner that finally sees red over the issue will look the other way because your brother is a detective. You might not want to use that as your defense, it could backfire...

[NYBowhunter]

Sir, people with little minds do not engage in intelligent debate. They have their own opinions and facts do not enter into the equation. I don't know exactly what you mean by hoping I cross the wrong guy one day but I infer that you wish me harm which I would never wish on another person who has never harmed me or my family.

You have a great day.

No I dont wish anyone harm....but I think you are putting yourself in harms way by placing yourself in this situation..I would just hope that you rethink what your doing... step back for a second and re-read your posts, you dont have any consideration for landowners....come on.......you want to talk facts ..the simple fact is its wrong to tresspass IRREGARDLESS of the properties size and if its unposted....bottom line its wrong and if you cant see that then I really feel for you. And saying your going to hide behind your brothers shield is childdish and shows your guilt.....Have a great day and keep telling yourself that what you are doing is right..