Alternative thinking

[nyantler]

I think what they are saying is that hunters in that area are not shooting an adequate number of does to keep the population from continuing to explode. Regardless of where the hunters of that area stand in the percentages, they still are not keeping pace with the available does. There is something unique about that region that is causing an out-of-control deer population, they say. Each year they have doe tags left over that no one is interested in picking up. So flooding the area with more permits is simply not hacking it anymore.

 

So the question still has to be asked (and not ignored or buried in BS), why this one relatively small area of NYS has this unique problem. And I am simply asking that question.

 

And no the solution is not to run off and randomly try this idea or that idea from some randomly selected state. This unique regional problem will require a unique targeted regional solution. And my thought is that when that question that I am asking is answered, there may very well be some major breakthroughs in deer management that may reach beyond the boundaries of these few WMUs.

 

I'm not sure how anyone can refute any of what you're saying or asking? In my view it has all been right on point. Maybe the fact that some still don't want to accept it is the reason nothing has changed in the ever growing need to manage deer and their populations in NYS.

[dbHunterNY]

I think what they are saying is that hunters in that area are not shooting an adequate number of does to keep the population from continuing to explode. Regardless of where the hunters of that area stand in the percentages, they still are not keeping pace with the available does. There is something unique about that region that is causing an out-of-control deer population, they say. Each year they have doe tags left over that no one is interested in picking up. So flooding the area with more permits is simply not hacking it anymore.

 

So the question still has to be asked (and not ignored or buried in BS), why this one relatively small area of NYS has this unique problem. And I am simply asking that question.

 

And no the solution is not to run off and randomly try this idea or that idea from some randomly selected state. This unique regional problem will require a unique targeted regional solution. And my thought is that when that question that I am asking is answered, there may very well be some major breakthroughs in deer management that may reach beyond the boundaries of these few WMUs.

 

 

in my experience some hunters can't wrap their heads around just how many doe you can take in some areas.  they see a group like the one Phade's in taking 10 doe on a small 20+ acres and they get nervous.  they back off doe harvest or are content.  if DEC was a little more open about how many doe should be harvested like in deer per square mile people would be at ease pulling the trigger.  hunters in general are more comfortable seeing too many deer than too few.  ....just a contributing factor.  not saying this is the sole reason.

Edited September 11, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[nyantler]

If I am reading this incorrectly, but I apologize, but are you essentially saying that because the reg changes doesn't impact you/your style, that you don't care about it? I completely understand the dynamics of the dog eat dog world, but I wouldn't fully wholesale discount something that screws with a passion/enjoyment for others because it doesn't impact me.

You read it correctly.. I really don't care.. none of it impacts my hunting experience in the least. I don't feel that I'm getting screwed in any way because I don't look at it like you. IMO there really are no regs that prevent hunters from being good stewards of deer on their own. I love hunting and I can't think of anything that can change that. All of this to me is just a fun exchange of ideas and opinions. Deer management discussions are very interesting to me. Kind of like people watching, but with different ideas and opinions as the subject rather than different looking people. It's not important at all, just fun. It isn't about dog eat dog... I don't see it that way... it's just not important in the scheme of life. Life is too short for me be losing sleep over a few deer management rules and regulations. Especially if it involves getting upset, resorting to name calling and making enemies of fellow hunters to get a point across... that in itself is not productive or important to me.

[phade]

You read it correctly.. I really don't care.. none of it impacts my hunting experience in the least. I don't feel that I'm getting screwed in any way because I don't look at it like you. IMO there really are no regs that prevent hunters from being good stewards of deer on their own. I love hunting and I can't think of anything that can change that. All of this to me is just a fun exchange of ideas and opinions. Deer management discussions are very interesting to me. Kind of like people watching, but with different ideas and opinions as the subject rather than different looking people. It's not important at all, just fun. It isn't about dog eat dog... I don't see it that way... it's just not important in the scheme of life. Life is too short for me be losing sleep over a few deer management rules and regulations. Especially if it involves getting upset, resorting to name calling and making enemies of fellow hunters to get a point across... that in itself is not productive or important to me.

 

I care about the rules/regs because they've steered us to where we are largely because people are ambivalent. It directly impacts my ability to enjoy the sport, threatens the continuation of the sporting heritage/tradition, and as much as you may disagree, being a steward means having tough conversations when the rubber doesn't meet the road. Going down this path of antlerless seasons, and potential MZ in bow, is directly tied to stewardship. Not using the right tool immediately when there are supposed dire straits, is not good stewardship, because there's absolutely ZERO to substantiate it from the entity that controls hunting for the most part. Challenging these regs IS good stewardship.

 

If you think otherwise, I don't know what else to say, other than that is a shame.

[nyantler]

I care about the rules/regs because they've steered us to where we are largely because people are ambivalent. It directly impacts my ability to enjoy the sport, threatens the continuation of the sporting heritage/tradition, and as much as you may disagree, being a steward means having tough conversations when the rubber doesn't meet the road. Going down this path of antlerless seasons, and potential MZ in bow, is directly tied to stewardship. Not using the right tool immediately when there are supposed dire straits, is not good stewardship, because there's absolutely ZERO to substantiate it from the entity that controls hunting for the most part. Challenging these regs IS good stewardship.

 

If you think otherwise, I don't know what else to say, other than that is a shame.

The only thing that will stop the continuation of deer hunting in our lifetime is the eradication of whitetails in NY. I promise the sky won't fall any time soon despite anything you like or don't like about NY deer management ideas. What you call the "right tools" are relative to your position on management in general and varies depending on who you talk to. So far nobody has invented the "right tool" in NY that I can see based on the progress over the last 40 years. Not for lack of trying, but more the lack of a consensus by NY hunters and sometimes the DEC to buy into new ideas.

 

I've spent 25 years involved in it all... it's your turn now... have at it! Every generation needs a successor.. hopefully we'll meet someday in the future when your older and wiser and laugh at how unimportant hunting is in the scheme of life. Until then good luck and have some fun. That's really the greatest trophy you will ever get from hunting if you're doing it right.

[phade]

The only thing that will stop the continuation of deer hunting in our lifetime is the eradication of whitetails in NY. I promise the sky won't fall any time soon despite anything you like or don't like about NY deer management ideas. What you call the "right tools" are relative to your position on management in general and varies depending on who you talk to. So far nobody has invented the "right tool" in NY that I can see based on the progress over the last 40 years. Not for lack of trying, but more the lack of a consensus by NY hunters and sometimes the DEC to buy into new ideas.

 

I've spent 25 years involved in it all... it's your turn now... have at it! Every generation needs a successor.. hopefully we'll meet someday in the future when your older and wiser and laugh at how unimportant hunting is in the scheme of life. Until then good luck and have some fun. That's really the greatest trophy you will ever get from hunting if you're doing it right.

 

My career is due in large to hunting. Directly so. I wouldn't describe hunting as unimportant in my life, as my wife and kids are supported as a result of my hunting.

 

Some of the talk in these threads exemplify both parts of the spectrum relative to deer hunting and management. And you are exactly right about the not inventing the right tool in NY. That seems to be our real problem, people keep talking about unique regional solutions or the fact NY is different. Maybe if we broke from this old guard mentality and stop trying to re-invent the wheel, we can take what has proven to work in similar environmental conditions and make use for our own, we wouldn't be facing a gun season in bow in 2017.

Edited September 12, 2015 by phade

[gjs4]

How many does live in the regions where the antler less changes have been made and how many need to be killed for the population to be reduced "enough"?

I can't help but want to scream at these posts for their Kool Aid drinking nature. If you guys truly think the state has a clue on what's there, what needs to go (for any reason beyond limiting thruway collisions or some foresters wet dream of young trees not being browsed) you will surely not be dumb enough to post about how chitty the hunting is here in 3 years after the bullets and winters knock the numbers low enough most sits don't yield a sighting.

Figure out how many deer are where you hunt rather than how it affects your buck hunting ... And figure out how to age bucks before complaining about buck tags, herd health or anything of the sort

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[nyantler]

My career is due in large to hunting. Directly so. I wouldn't describe hunting as unimportant in my life, as my wife and kids are supported as a result of my hunting.

 

Some of the talk in these threads exemplify both parts of the spectrum relative to deer hunting and management. And you are exactly right about the not inventing the right tool in NY. That seems to be our real problem, people keep talking about unique regional solutions or the fact NY is different. Maybe if we broke from this old guard mentality and stop trying to re-invent the wheel, we can take what has proven to work in similar environmental conditions and make use for our own, we wouldn't be facing a gun season in bow in 2017.

I think we agree on a lot of this... just not on the part about a OBR being the answer. I also think that each region must be treated separately, especially the ADK's... and western NY is much different than long island and the Catskill area. I am in agreement on the interruption of certain seasons that seem to make no sense. The DEC would really have to explain to me how any of what they're planning has anything to do with good overall deer or habitat management.