DEC Announces Proposed Rule Changes to Allow Big Bore Air Rifles for Big Game Hunting

[Elmo]

Arrows kill by cutting and blood lose. Bullets kill by hydrostatic shock. That's is why I say you can't make an equal comparison between an air gun and a crossbow. Completely different ways of killing game animal. The real question is if the air gun produces enough hydrostatic shock to kill it. If it doesn't produce enough then yes, it's no different than a field point. The fact that DEC is even considering big bore air guns tells me that some of these air gun do produce enough hydrostatic shock.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[13BVET]

Arrows kill by cutting and blood lose. Bullets kill by hydrostatic shock. That's is why I say you can't make an equal comparison between an air gun and a crossbow. Completely different ways of killing game animal. The real question is if the air gun produces enough hydrostatic shock to kill it. If it doesn't produce enough then yes, it's no different than a field point. The fact that DEC is even considering big bore air guns tells me that some of these air gun do produce enough hydrostatic shock.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Absolutely. Most notably the custom made ones, that can be designed to gain that power. Of course, they're way out of my price range, but that's a different story.

[13BVET]

Lewis & Clark used a big bore air rifle to harvest game. And that was ages ago.

[RoadKill44]

It's been stated that 650fps is under powered to open hollow points or create damage. The air gun may work well at 20 to 30 yard shots. It's also been stated that some favor the quiet approach of the air gun but it seems to me as though a crossbow or bow is quieter and more effective out to 40 yards. We aren't necessarily talking about just killing a deer but can one kill a deer effectively.

 

Maybe you're not going to upset neighbors by being quiet but you may make not hunters become anti-hunters when they see the suffering of wounded deer coming into their backyards. There are many regulations on broadheads just for reasons of producing an ethical kill. I've not seen anything in this forum indicating a hunter will get a quick kill (and harvest) any quieter or efficiently than with a crossbow or bow.

 

My fear is that inexperienced hunters (with the money) who think an air gun is fine may try 60 yard shots just because they can hold a tight group at that distance. Maimed deer is no a pretty picture to non hunters and there is more to being discreet than silence.

 

[13BVET]

It's been stated that 650fps is under powered to open hollow points or create damage. The air gun may work well at 20 to 30 yard shots. It's also been stated that some favor the quiet approach of the air gun but it seems to me as though a crossbow or bow is quieter and more effective out to 40 yards. We aren't necessarily talking about just killing a deer but can one kill a deer effectively.

 

Maybe you're not going to upset neighbors by being quiet but you may make not hunters become anti-hunters when they see the suffering of wounded deer coming into their backyards. There are many regulations on broadheads just for reasons of producing an ethical kill. I've not seen anything in this forum indicating a hunter will get a quick kill (and harvest) any quieter or efficiently than with a crossbow or bow.

 

My fear is that inexperienced hunters (with the money) who think an air gun is fine may try 60 yard shots just because they can hold a tight group at that distance. Maimed deer is no a pretty picture to non hunters and there is more to being discreet than silence.

 

Thankfully, a lot of big bores exceed that 650 fps mark.

[RoadKill44]

Okay, so here's a prime example. The Air Force Texan, .45, 1000fps, producing over 500 ft lbs of energy. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce_Texan_Big_Bore_Air_Rifle/3575/6923    This will most certainly take deer sized game very cleanly.

Ok a 410 at 1830 fps delivers just over 600 ft lbs of energy. Yes, It too can kill a deer but I wouldn't recommend the use of a 410 to anyone hunting deer either. I'm sure there are a few who might go out with a 410 for the challenge. For me it wouldn't be ethical.

 

Being new to this site and its forums, I'd just like to say, although I'm not in full agreement of everyone, I do enjoy reading your opinions both good and bad. Not everyone hunts for the same reasons and this forum has got me reading into the subject of air guns. A topic I would have otherwise NOT looked into. I haven't seen an air gun in action (other than my two BB guns) so you'll have to take my viewpoint on this topic from that prospective.

 

Thank you all for the banter.

[Doc]

The comparison between air gun versus bow/crossbow is inaccurate in my opinion. Hunting with an air gun I think is closer in comparison to hunting with a handgun.

Absolutely correct. The whole theory of the way these implements kill is different.

[Doc]

Actually it serves no purpose to be talking in terms of speed or caliber. It all boils down to energy delivered at the various distances. That is the true measure of the effectiveness of guns. So far I have not heard anyone talk about that important factor. Not even any discussion of projectile mass. So all the discussion about how lethal these guns are, argues the point without one mention of the true criteria that matters.

 

 

 

[13BVET]

Actually it serves no purpose to be talking in terms of speed or caliber. It all boils down to energy delivered at the various distances. That is the true measure of the effectiveness of guns. So far I have not heard anyone talk about that important factor. Not even any discussion of projectile mass. So all the discussion about how lethal these guns are, argues the point without one mention of the true criteria that matters.

 

What did you want to know, Doc? Like most ammo, the bullet for these come in different grains. I used to have a 20 gauge air shotgun, that shot 396 grain dangerous game slugs with authority. I'd easily punch through 2x4's at 50 yards. The key to power on these, is air pressure, and hammer spring. The heavier the hammer spring, the more power. If you combine, for example, a heavy hammer spring, with a 4500 psi fill, you're talking some respectable power. Combine that with a healthy weight-let's say 300 grain bullet, you're going to have some impressive downrange energy.

[Buckmaster7600]

Actually it serves no purpose to be talking in terms of speed or caliber. It all boils down to energy delivered at the various distances. That is the true measure of the effectiveness of guns. So far I have not heard anyone talk about that important factor. Not even any discussion of projectile mass. So all the discussion about how lethal these guns are, argues the point without one mention of the true criteria that matters.

This is completely wrong Doc a 300win mag with nearly 4000 ft lbs of energy with the wrong bullet that doesn't expand or hit major bone doesn't do much damage to an animal at all. Take a 250gn .45 cal hard cast Bullet with a +or- .40 malplate at 1000 fps will be a lot more efficient and effective even at around 3000ftlbs less.

Energy is only part of effectiveness. With slow moving projectiles you want a large permanent wound channel to create mass hemorrhaging.

As for the effectiveness of a 410 it has nothing to do so with enery it has to do with bullet construction if a company made a sabbot for a 410 it would be an excellent deer cartride. A .35 cal 180gn bullet at around 1500fps would be an excellent deer cartridge oh wait ever heard of a 357 maximum?

Edited January 17, 2016 by Buckmaster7600

[shawnhu]

This is completely wrong Doc a 300win mag with nearly 4000 ft lbs of energy with the wrong bullet that doesn't expand or hit major bone doesn't do much damage to an animal at all. Take a 250gn .45 cal hard cast Bullet with a +or- .40 malplate at 1000 fps will be a lot more efficient and effective even at around 3000ftlbs less.

I'm not sure if Doc understands how energy works with the associated terminal projectile.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Doc]

I'm not sure if Doc understands how energy works with the associated terminal projectile.

And so you people are trying to tell me that you can have a discussion about killing capabilities without including the most important aspect ..... terminal energy. Well, look at all the time and paper the reloading books wasted on charting all of that for each load. You cannot have a serious discussion of killing capabilities of any gun without including energy. That really isn't even arguable. And yet it is a feature of these air guns that no one has even brought up here. I'm not saying that the discussion is over once terminal energy has been established, but without that data, the discussion hasn't even seriously begun.

[shawnhu]

And so you people are trying to tell me that you can have a discussion about killing capabilities without including the most important aspect ..... terminal energy. Well, look at all the time and paper the reloading books wasted on charting all of that for each load. You cannot have a serious discussion of killing capabilities of any gun without including energy. That really isn't even arguable. And yet it is a feature of these air guns that no one has even brought up here. I'm not saying that the discussion is over once terminal energy has been established, but without that data, the discussion hasn't even seriously begun.

You seriously need to look at aspects outside of energy. As stated already, energy is nothing if not properly transferred. Wasted energy is as good as not having any to begin with.

This really isn't a class for terminal ballistics, that's a discussion for another night.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Doc]

You seriously need to look at aspects outside of energy. As stated already, energy is nothing if not properly transferred. Wasted energy is as good as not having any to begin with.

This really isn't a class for terminal ballistics, that's a discussion for another night.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

In other words, you have no energy data to offer either. What a batch of nonsensical double talk. Energy is not the whole story, but it is the major factor when assessing effectiveness of any firearm. And to try to conduct a discussion without that primary piece of information, is just an admission that you really don't know what you are talking about.

[Buckmaster7600]

And so you people are trying to tell me that you can have a discussion about killing capabilities without including the most important aspect ..... terminal energy. Well, look at all the time and paper the reloading books wasted on charting all of that for each load. You cannot have a serious discussion of killing capabilities of any gun without including energy. That really isn't even arguable. And yet it is a feature of these air guns that no one has even brought up here. I'm not saying that the discussion is over once terminal energy has been established, but without that data, the discussion hasn't even seriously begun.

You guys is a broad statement doc, 2 or 3 pages ago I did bring up energy and then again last page. And I will repeat what I have said prior if one of these "air" guns can push a 250gn .40" or larger slug at at least 900fps at the muzzle. That would be plenty to get through about any critter on North America. Just read a little about Elmer Keith if you don't believe it. It doesn't matter what puts the slug into motion as long as it gets the needed weight to the nessesary velocity it will perform the same.

I couldn't care less about a big game air gun but if they will kill deer who cares no different than a crossbow. Actually if these are going in gun season it's less of a matter than crossbows because I don't think anyone could argue that one of these are more effective than a shotgun or rifle.

[shawnhu]

In other words, you have no energy data to offer either. What a batch of nonsensical double talk. Energy is not the whole story, but it is the major factor when assessing effectiveness of any firearm. And to try to conduct a discussion without that primary piece of information, is just an admission that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Not for someone that has already made up their mind about Airguns and just pretending to be interested, no.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[RoadKill44]

Energy effectiveness is exactly true. Hard case bullets that past through only make a hole. The energy (in the way of mass and speed) left in the bullet exiting the animal does no further damage. The intent of the hollow point is to expand and release its energy into the body of the animal. That energy is in the form of a shockwave that damages internal organs around the hole. repeat: Poking a hole does little damage at any speed.  

[Buckmaster7600]

Energy effectiveness is exactly true. Hard case bullets that past through only make a hole. The energy (in the way of mass and speed) left in the bullet exiting the animal does no further damage. The intent of the hollow point is to expand and release its energy into the body of the animal. That energy is in the form of a shockwave that damages internal organs around the hole. repeat: Poking a hole does little damage at any speed.

That is incorrect a hard projectile with a large malplate tears huge holes. The velocities that these are shooting a hollow point should not even be considered!

[shawnhu]

That is incorrect a hard projectile with a large malplate tears huge holes. The velocities that these are shooting a hollow point should not even be considered!

I think he was agreeing with you.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Buckmaster7600]

I think he was agreeing with you.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

Maybe but I didn't read it that way.

[shawnhu]

Either way, unless you've shot Airguns with or without hollow points, energy, bc, terminal performance really is a moot point. It's like explaining to an anti the benefits of hunting or the outdoors, and this is the kind of attitude I see exhibited here, supposed hunters, against fellow hunters.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Buckmaster7600]

Either way, unless you've shot Airguns with or without hollow points, energy, bc, terminal performance really is a moot point. It's like explaining to an anti the benefits of hunting or the outdoors, and this is the kind of attitude I see exhibited here, supposed hunters, against fellow hunters.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

Really? so because it's propelled by compressed air or gas it performs differently than a bullet propelled by an explosion?

As a handgun hunter myself I think I have more experience with slow heavy projectiles than any airgunhunters in ny unless they travel a lot.

[shawnhu]

Really? so because it's propelled by compressed air or gas it performs differently than a bullet propelled by an explosion?

As a handgun hunter myself I think I have more experience with slow heavy projectiles than any airgunhunters in ny unless they travel a lot.

Airgun hunting in NYS is but all of 3 or so years, but you'll be surprised at how many dedicated airgunners are in NY. You may have extensive experience in powder burning firearms, but to claim superior knowledge over another group of gunners is ignorant. And TBH, I wouldn't have expected a statement like that from you.

Noise factor aside, do you really feel comparing an air rifle is fair to a handgun?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Buckmaster7600]

Airgun hunting in NYS is but all of 3 or so years, but you'll be surprised at how many dedicated airgunners are in NY. You may have extensive experience in powder burning firearms, but to claim superior knowledge over another group of gunners is ignorant. And TBH, I wouldn't have expected a statement like that from you.

Noise factor aside, do you really feel comparing an air rifle is fair to a handgun?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

Like I said all along velocity and weight with hardcast is all the same! I would say that the 100+ years of handgun hunting experience with large bore slow movers is exactly what I would be leaning on for performance as to a weapon that has really been main stream for 10 years or so.

[13BVET]

Like I said all along velocity and weight with hardcast is all the same! I would say that the 100+ years of handgun hunting experience with large bore slow movers is exactly what I would be leaning on for performance as to a weapon that has really been main stream for 10 years or so.

 

Actually, airguns have been used for hunting for hundreds of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun