Coyote Bounty in PA.

[Doc]

I see the coyote in NYS and PA to be a predator at the top of his food chain. As such, being so naturally prolific, I see them as something that requires some form of population control just like any other species. I try to keep the image of cute little puppy dogs out of my thinking when it comes to letting an efficient predator explode in numbers without any other control. Hunting has been justified in society primarily because it is recognized that hunters have a necessary place in the food chain that can help regulate animal numbers. I believe that the same justification can be applied to coyotes. However, it appears that since coyotes have no value as table fare, and the fur prices are not motivating hunters to become that population check, maybe a little cash incentive in the form of a bounty might insert hunters back into the food chain to control numbers of a species that currently has no control. So if for no other reason, I would like to see them go ahead and treat this bounty program as a lab experiment to see exactly how effective (or not) such a program can be here on the eastern side of the country.

[Curmudgeon]

FSW -

 

You are a gas bag. You want to discredit me - and now nyanter too. He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site regarding deer and wildlife.

 

I called you out. You say I am not a hunter. Put your money where your mouth is. Why no response?

 

Shawn -

 

Something you said earlier triggered a memory. It was something like, you didn't know any hunters who would not kill a coyote. I remember a quote I read in the paper years ago. Someone said "I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know a single person who voted for him." It is the same thing. We choose our friends and talk to people like us. I can't imagine any one of my hunting group shooting a coyote. Why would they? 

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[Four Season Whitetail's]

FSW -

 

You are a gas bag. You want to discredit me - and now nyanter too. He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site regarding deer and wildlife.

 

I called you out. You say I am not a hunter. Put your money where your mouth is. Why no response?

 

Shawn -

 

Something you said earlier triggered a memory. It was something like, you didn't know any hunters who would not kill a coyote. I remember a quote I read in the paper years ago. Someone said "I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know a single person who voted for him." It is the same thing. We choose our friends and talk to people like us. I can't imagine any one of my hunting group shooting a coyote. Why would they? 

Well if i am a gas bag i am one that tells real true life facts. I talk real world, seen with our own eyes and dealt with coyote problems. I discredit you and him for the fact that you both are self admitting non coyote hunters that only really know what they have read in a book and have only dealt with coyotes when there was not an over population problem that involved dead farm animals and threat to pets and humans. I dont really give a rats ass what either one of you say about what your books say that cant and dont happen when i in fact know they did and do.

I dont care what you think he knows about deer and wildlife. I have lived with deer and wildlife for 40 years and have lived with the ones on  pieces of properties of 800 acres at one end of the state and 300 acres at the other for over 20 of those years so i dont need a book reader to tell me what does or does not happen.

I really dont care what kind of a hunter you say you are. Your words speak loud and clear on this site of what kind of hunter you are,

If you are. Kinda like one of those camera hunters i guess, That reads books!

[nyantler]

Seeing how man is really the only means of effectively controlling coyote populations it only makes sense that hunting them is necessary... and making sure enough hunters get afield to help reduce populations is essential to maintaining a balance between predator and prey in any habitat. If the introduction of a bounty helps get to that balance that's a good thing and worth the "experiment". Some here would have us believe that the coyote has no purpose in the ecosystem and the only good answer is to eradicate them from all habitats by any means necessary... that approach is irresponsible not only to the animal, but to wildlife management in general. Promoting a bounty to help eradicate the coyote population, like some would have it, only furthers the promotion of foolish misinformation and untruth being passed around by many hunters.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Seeing how man is really the only means of effectively controlling coyote populations it only makes sense that hunting them is necessary... and making sure enough hunters get afield to help reduce populations is essential to maintaining a balance between predator and prey in any habitat. If the introduction of a bounty helps get to that balance that's a good thing and worth the "experiment". Some here would have us believe that the coyote has no purpose in the ecosystem and the only good answer is to eradicate them from all habitats by any means necessary... that approach is irresponsible not only to the animal, but to wildlife management in general. Promoting a bounty to help eradicate the coyote population, like some would have it, only furthers the promotion of foolish misinformation and untruth being passed around by many hunters.

I believe its more like some of believe that coyotes in high numbers have no use on 'Their" piece of the ecosystem because of the useless destruction they cause. There are plenty of other less destructive animals that will do the same job with less harm to their forest neighbors.

 

If one is to get on a few other states hunting websites and read how their land, That they paid thousands of dollars for. is now that the wolf has been thrown back on the landscape.  I believe it makes a big difference how one feels about destruction of a piece of property if that person was the one that had to cut the check for that land. 

[nyantler]

I believe its more like some of believe that coyotes in high numbers have no use on 'Their" piece of the ecosystem because of the useless destruction they cause. There are plenty of other less destructive animals that will do the same job with less harm to their forest neighbors.

 

If one is to get on a few other states hunting websites and read how their land, That they paid thousands of dollars for. is now that the wolf has been thrown back on the landscape.  I believe it makes a big difference how one feels about destruction of a piece of property if that person was the one that had to cut the check for that land.

What people do on their property IS their own business... they will have to suffer the consequences and live with whatever choices they make about how to manage their land. Promoting, in general, the eradication of coyotes based on misinformation and lack of knowledge about real coyote behavior is irresponsible. Claiming that coyotes have totally destroyed an entire habitat and all the wildlife in it anywhere in NY as fact is completely delusional, unfounded and should not be taken seriously. A position of controlling predator populations to maintain a balance in any habitat is common sense, that is not what is going on in your case.

[nyantler]

I see the coyote in NYS and PA to be a predator at the top of his food chain. As such, being so naturally prolific, I see them as something that requires some form of population control just like any other species. I try to keep the image of cute little puppy dogs out of my thinking when it comes to letting an efficient predator explode in numbers without any other control. Hunting has been justified in society primarily because it is recognized that hunters have a necessary place in the food chain that can help regulate animal numbers. I believe that the same justification can be applied to coyotes. However, it appears that since coyotes have no value as table fare, and the fur prices are not motivating hunters to become that population check, maybe a little cash incentive in the form of a bounty might insert hunters back into the food chain to control numbers of a species that currently has no control. So if for no other reason, I would like to see them go ahead and treat this bounty program as a lab experiment to see exactly how effective (or not) such a program can be here on the eastern side of the country.

As an interesting side note... I was checking on coyote fur prices in western NY and found that coyote pelts have sold at auction as recently as Jan. 17th for as much as $62.00. The average pelt selling for around $25... these are trapped coyotes probably void of bullet holes anywhere other than the head area. But, if we're talking about a $25 bounty as a means of attracting more coyote hunting, it seems that we already have a monetary incentive in place that hasn't had much affect on hunter numbers. Seems that the dollar amount would have to be much higher to attract more attention to those that are not already hunting coyotes. I'm sure there is a number that might spur more interest as a bounty paid out by the state, but would the state be able to absorb that cost... and would that hurt the private sector buyers?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What people do on their property IS their own business... they will have to suffer the consequences and live with whatever choices they make about how to manage their land. Promoting, in general, the eradication of coyotes based on misinformation and lack of knowledge about real coyote behavior is irresponsible. Claiming that coyotes have totally destroyed an entire habitat and all the wildlife in it anywhere in NY as fact is completely delusional, unfounded and should not be taken seriously. A position of controlling predator populations to maintain a balance in any habitat is common sense, that is not what is going on in your case.

See that just your problem. My eradication is based on 100% boots on the ground facts. We lived it. We saw it. We dealt with it. We had our animals killed by vermin. We had are pets and people threatened by the vermin. We paid 100's of 1000's of dollars for a prime piece of property with wildlife galore.

 Have you ever done any of these things?  No you sure the frig have not!  What is delusional is you trying to tell us that have the problem in black and white that we dont have a problem because you read it in a book somewhere.

You were also one of those guys that said CWD could be spread by a whitetail deer because you read in a book somewhere that a scientist somewhere injected CWD prions into whitetail deer urine and then induced it into another host. You were proven to be delusional on that case also.  You really need to stick to the books.

You say these people that used to see few if any coyotes on their cams but did have piles of wildlife pics, that now have a pile of pics of 4-6 vermin in their food plots but are seeing no more wildlife are delusional also? Bullshit. Their problems are just getting started and you are seeing more and more of them on this site alone..That is common sense.

As to your saying we are not now maintaining is also bull as vermin was taken on this property both Fri and Sat night to callers. 

Hunters with dogs and Artic cats every weekend will run down a problem during the winter, Open season year around and special treats around the den sites will take care of an over population the first year. After that the next year or two you will see few to none and the following year open season 365 will keep them in check. While at the same time you will have the wildlife on your property that you really want. Thats taken right out of the book of reality!

 

No one will ever suffer any consequences by not having any vermin on their property ever again!  Fact!

Edited January 24, 2016 by Four Season Whitetails

[nyantler]

You were also one of those guys that said CWD could be spread by a whitetail deer because you read in a book somewhere that a scientist somewhere injected CWD prions into whitetail deer urine and then induced it into another host. You were proven to be delusional on that case also.

LOL... Now your just makin' stuff up... Show me where I ever said anything of the sort. Not only have I never said it.. I've never even heard that or read it anywhere. You gotta lay of the weed man... it's killin' your brain cells and causing you to hallucinate.

[shawnhu]

FSW -

You are a gas bag. You want to discredit me - and now nyanter too. He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the site regarding deer and wildlife.

I called you out. You say I am not a hunter. Put your money where your mouth is. Why no response?

Shawn -

Something you said earlier triggered a memory. It was something like, you didn't know any hunters who would not kill a coyote. I remember a quote I read in the paper years ago. Someone said "I can't believe Nixon won. I don't know a single person who voted for him." It is the same thing. We choose our friends and talk to people like us. I can't imagine any one of my hunting group shooting a coyote. Why would they?

I don't discriminate on who I meet on the field, I wish it was the case sometimes, but it doesn't happen that way. My statement still stands, I've yet to meet a hunter on the field that wouldn't shoot a coyote.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[shawnhu]

Seeing how man is really the only means of effectively controlling coyote populations it only makes sense that hunting them is necessary... and making sure enough hunters get afield to help reduce populations is essential to maintaining a balance between predator and prey in any habitat. If the introduction of a bounty helps get to that balance that's a good thing and worth the "experiment". Some here would have us believe that the coyote has no purpose in the ecosystem and the only good answer is to eradicate them from all habitats by any means necessary... that approach is irresponsible not only to the animal, but to wildlife management in general. Promoting a bounty to help eradicate the coyote population, like some would have it, only furthers the promotion of foolish misinformation and untruth being passed around by many hunters.

I can't speak for others, but I've never advocated eradication. But I'm being attacked as if I was, and it's a bit confusing.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[nyantler]

I can't speak for others, but I've never advocated eradication. But I'm being attacked as if I was, and it's a bit confusing.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

None of that was directed at you... sorry for the confusion. I also am not against a bounty if it actually helps with balanced coyote management... just don't understand those that would use it as a way to see that all coyotes are killed.

Edited January 24, 2016 by nyantler

[Four Season Whitetail's]

LOL... Now your just makin' stuff up... Show me where I ever said anything of the sort. Not only have I never said it.. I've never even heard that or read it anywhere. You gotta lay of the weed man... it's killin' your brain cells and causing you to hallucinate.

I cant go back far enough to prove your words but i believe you were on that CWD in the urine bandwagon with a few others.  Anyways i did find these posts from the other yote lover on this site that kinda proves my words from earlier today.

 

Lightning Rod

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 08:29 PM

Rob -

 

That is so 19th century. So simple. I've read a number of your posts. This is extreme - even for you. They aren't hell dogs, they are God's dogs. Have you ever taken the time to watch them, or do you just shoot first and not ask questions later?

 

 

 

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 06:12 AM

 

The Navaho refer to the coyote as "God's dog". I happen to agree with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another one of Gods animals.  Find it hard to kill animals huh?

[nyantler]

I cant go back far enough to prove your words but i believe you were on that CWD in the urine bandwagon with a few others.  Anyways i did find these posts from the other yote lover on this site that kinda proves my words from earlier today.

Well you believe wrong... I haven't been in on many, if any, CWD conversations because it is not a big issue here in NY as far as I'm concerned. The fact that there are some here that don't have a hatred for coyotes does nothing to prove your position on coyotes.

To hold a position that predator populations must be watched and kept in check is sensible... calling for the eradication of entire coyote populations like you propose is asinine and shouldn't be taken seriously... and has no place in an intelligent conversation about whether or not putting bounties on coyotes is a good or bad idea for controlling predator populations.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well you believe wrong... I haven't been in on many, if any, CWD conversations because it is not a big issue here in NY as far as I'm concerned. The fact that there are some here that don't have a hatred for coyotes does nothing to prove your position on coyotes.

To hold a position that predator populations must be watched and kept in check is sensible... calling for the eradication of entire coyote populations like you propose is asinine and shouldn't be taken seriously... and has no place in an intelligent conversation about whether or not putting bounties on coyotes is a good or bad idea for controlling predator populations.

Again i can only tell ya what 100% facts that happened on my ground. Had very few yotes and had plenty of deer, year or two later the yote population blew up and deer numbers dropped., Next year and there are no deer to speak of and yotes everywhere.Livestock killed with pets and peopled moved in on. Killed every animal on site 365 with crazy numbers of vermin killed with all means,mothers and pups destroyed at the den and the yote problem was gone next year or two the whitetails and turkeys were back in great numbers. Now 2-3 years later we are just starting to see a number of vermin around again but this time we jumped on them before they could get a foothold and start dining again.

 

Fact is that they will wipe out your hunting by eating your fawns and running your adults and fact is if you wipe them off a piece of property in all out warfare you will not see them back for a couple years in any kind of problem numbers. No book just 100% actual fact that happened on this piece of property.

[nyantler]

 Again i can only tell ya what 100% facts that happened on my ground. Had very few yotes and had plenty of deer, year or two later the yote population blew up and deer numbers dropped., Next year and there are no deer to speak of and yotes everywhere.Livestock killed with pets and peopled moved in on. Killed every animal on site 365 with crazy numbers of vermin killed with all means,mothers and pups destroyed at the den and the yote problem was gone next year or two the whitetails and turkeys were back in great numbers. Now 2-3 years later we are just starting to see a number of vermin around again but this time we jumped on them before they could get a foothold and start dining again.

 

Fact is that they will wipe out your hunting by eating your fawns and running your adults and fact is if you wipe them off a piece of property in all out warfare you will not see them back for a couple years in any kind of problem numbers. No book just 100% actual fact that happened on this piece of property.

And here we are right back where we started

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And here we are right back where we started

No we are not because the vermin did not repopulate like you said it would and they did not just breed more and bring their numbers back up. Now they are just the floaters. We do not have packs yipping and yapping on 3 corners of the property. We do not see them during daylight any longer and the biggest thing i can show you to prove that we are no where near where we were is that you can now see deer and turkeys in the fields.  

That did not happen back where we started. 

[nyantler]

No we are not because the vermin did not repopulate like you said it would and they did not just breed more and bring their numbers back up. Now they are just the floaters. We do not have packs yipping and yapping on 3 corners of the property. We do not see them during daylight any longer and the biggest thing i can show you to prove that we are no where near where we were is that you can now see deer and turkeys in the fields.  

That did not happen back where we started. 

I meant back where we started in the conversation... but whatever... we've entertained everyone quite enough I think.

[Doc]

As an interesting side note... I was checking on coyote fur prices in western NY and found that coyote pelts have sold at auction as recently as Jan. 17th for as much as $62.00. The average pelt selling for around $25... these are trapped coyotes probably void of bullet holes anywhere other than the head area. But, if we're talking about a $25 bounty as a means of attracting more coyote hunting, it seems that we already have a monetary incentive in place that hasn't had much affect on hunter numbers. Seems that the dollar amount would have to be much higher to attract more attention to those that are not already hunting coyotes. I'm sure there is a number that might spur more interest as a bounty paid out by the state, but would the state be able to absorb that cost... and would that hurt the private sector buyers?

That is a question that I have been wondering about. The answer will come from the details of the proposal in terms of what the taker is allowed to do with the hide after collection of the bounty. If they are able to claim the bounty and also sell the hide then in affect they will receive $50 for each coyote, which would double the incentive. If the state takes possession of the hide, then they better tack on something more than initially proposed if they want to motivate any new hunters. But again, it all depends on the details, which may put me into the "Not in favor" column. It has to incent hunters to get out there or save your money, PA.

[Chris B]

That is a question that I have been wondering about. The answer will come from the details of the proposal in terms of what the taker is allowed to do with the hide after collection of the bounty. If they are able to claim the bounty and also sell the hide then in affect they will receive $50 for each coyote, which would double the incentive. If the state takes possession of the hide, then they better tack on something more than initially proposed if they want to motivate any new hunters. But again, it all depends on the details, which may put me into the "Not in favor" column. It has to incent hunters to get out there or save your money, PA.

 I'm really late to this party but I wanted to suggest that maybe the bounty would not cost taxpayers any money. I was thinking that maybe the DNR will take the furs, give the bounties, and then sell to fur buyers and recoup their money. I have no idea what fur prices are but it appears you say the going rate is about $50? Maybe the DNR planned that if they can sell at least half of the furs brought in (some may not be salvageable if shot by larger calibers or mange, etc), they will break even.

 

Is it possible the DNR could make money off of this bounty? Something to think about...

[nyantler]

I'm really late to this party but I wanted to suggest that maybe the bounty would not cost taxpayers any money. I was thinking that maybe the DNR will take the furs, give the bounties, and then sell to fur buyers and recoup their money. I have no idea what fur prices are but it appears you say the going rate is about $50? Maybe the DNR planned that if they can sell at least half of the furs brought in (some may not be salvageable if shot by larger calibers or mange, etc), they will break even.

 

Is it possible the DNR could make money off of this bounty? Something to think about...

A lot probably would depend on how deep the state wants to get into the fur trading business... I guess it is hard to know until you hear all the details about how that kind of program would be run... seeing how they would be adding a middle man instead of getting rid of the middle man when it comes to handling the furs. Might be a logistical nightmare.

[turkeyfeathers]

 I'm really late to this party but I wanted to suggest that maybe the bounty would not cost taxpayers any money. I was thinking that maybe the DNR will take the furs, give the bounties, and then sell to fur buyers and recoup their money. I have no idea what fur prices are but it appears you say the going rate is about $50? Maybe the DNR planned that if they can sell at least half of the furs brought in (some may not be salvageable if shot by larger calibers or mange, etc), they will break even.

 

Is it possible the DNR could make money off of this bounty? Something to think about...

sadly coyotes are only bringing maybe $20-25 or so on average from my knowledge

[Doc]

I believe the average is somewhere around $25 for local coyotes. And according to the article, the DNR is looking at $25 for the bounty, which then makes you wonder how if they are getting that same amount for coyotes through fur prices, how is this equal bounty an incentive to hunt coyotes. The only answer is if they can come up with a process that marks the pelt and then it is handed back to the hunter for fur sales. Then the hunter/trapper gets double the money or $50 ..... $25 (avg) for the sale of the pelt and $25 for the bounty. Perhaps that would provide an incentive for people to get out there and try to harvest some coyotes.

 

This is an aspect of the bounty law that may not be public yet and perhaps not even thought of yet, but could be the determining actor as to whether it would work or not.

[Mr VJP]

The coyote contest in NY State run out of Sullivan County, gives $25 for every yote brought in, but they keep it.  I believe they have someone willing to pay $25 for each pelt.  The prizes for the heaviest one per day, per youth, per woman and the heaviest one overall, is where the big money comes in.  Plus the dinner and raffles are a perk included in the contest entry fee.