lead in ammunition

[Core]

I wanted to read this thread but wow it is long now.

I think it's not that relevant to say that north dakotans of both hunting and non-hunting groups have lower than average lead levels so it's all moot, if the key finding is that hunters do have 50% higher levels.

I can only hope that there was a control put into this for shooting in general. By this I mean if you're into hunting you're more likely into guns and we know that guns expose the user to a small bit of lead even just by firing it (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a3.htm). Spend a bunch of time in an indoor range and your levels can go up. Hopefully the study controlled for that.

I'd personally prefer to feed my kids meat taken with lead-free bullets or by bow, just to be safe. But, I would still use lead ammo if I can be reasonably sure the meet close to the bullet damage is discarded.

[Curmudgeon]

They aren't starting to push it. They ran almost the exact same thing 6(?) years ago.

[Rattler]

When it comes to government regulation of firearms and hunting, as California goes, so goes every other Democrat controlled state.  And when we see a Democrat President in office, we can expect the same California oppression across the entire country, if we fail to stop it.

[vlywaterman]

smoking may cause cancer, wearing a seatbelt may lessen your chance of dying in an automobile crash, extensive drinking may cause liver damage, and so on, not definitive. But lets look at the odds(or science). 

About the bullets, I needed some different rounds right away for demonstration purposes so I got them at Gander Mtn. All 243, Remington Premier AccuTip, $38.88 a premium lead round, Barnes Vor-TX, $38.88 (copper), and Remington Core Lokt $19.88, cheap lead. The grouping on the two premium were great,,, the cheap ones,,, not so good, but they are cheap to shoot.

I'm hoping that many hunters will voluntarily switch to non-lead, we have other real battles to fight. 

[Mossberg500Guy]

One post i read on this topic said, Lead is harmful and can cause "Irreversible brain damage " and a "Lower IQ" 

So, Almost every person has had a harmful affect by Lead?

[vlywaterman]

I think you hit the nail on the head,

1. lead is harmful,,,,, we can agree on that

2. can  cause brain damage, lower IQ ,, that's the catch, it may or can 

3. so, I think most hunters have had the opportunity to be affected by lead.

look at this from the CDC that has been posted before"While there is no known endogenous role for lead, and no known level of exposure that is without effect, the variety of standards and guidelines acknowledges that some exposure to lead is unavoidable." from:http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/pha/LeadFragmentsinVenison/Venison%20and%20Lead%20HC%20110408.pdf

[Mossberg500Guy]

9 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

I think you hit the nail on the head,

1. lead is harmful,,,,, we can agree on that

2. can  cause brain damage, lower IQ ,, that's the catch, it may or can 

3. so, I think most hunters have had the opportunity to be affected by lead.

look at this from the CDC that has been posted before"While there is no known endogenous role for lead, and no known level of exposure that is without effect, the variety of standards and guidelines acknowledges that some exposure to lead is unavoidable." from:http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/pha/LeadFragmentsinVenison/Venison%20and%20Lead%20HC%20110408.pdf

 

I'm not even going to bother reading that, obviously you didn't realize i have no intent to even take this topic seriously...

 

But on a serious note, Lead has been used for many centuries, before Liberal and Green logic was even thought of, so i'll continue to buy the cheapest lead ammo and live my life like i have.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Mossberg500Guy

[Padre86]

9 hours ago, Core said:

I can only hope that there was a control put into this for shooting in general. By this I mean if you're into hunting you're more likely into guns and we know that guns expose the user to a small bit of lead even just by firing it (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a3.htm). Spend a bunch of time in an indoor range and your levels can go up. Hopefully the study controlled for that.

I'd personally prefer to feed my kids meat taken with lead-free bullets or by bow, just to be safe. But, I would still use lead ammo if I can be reasonably sure the meet close to the bullet damage is discarded.

Great point on controlling for lead from extensive target shooting!  As others have noted, your lead levels can also go up from a variety of other activities.

 

Also, your last comment (in bold) pretty much captures how most members of this forum seem to feel about this topic: if you want to hunt with lead-free ammo, fine and you're probably not doing any harm (to yourself or the environment).  If you want to hunt with cheaper, lead bullets, that's fine too; just use some common sense and do a proper butchering of your meat, and you'll more than likely be fine as well (most hunters have been doing this for quite some time now and there haven't been any widespread health issues as a result).

 

People should be free to chose which bullet type they want to shoot and hunt with.

 

Now that the horse has been beaten several times over, I'm wondering when the mods will shut down this thread; it's starting to turn into a broken record.

[airedale]

UK BAN ON LEAD AMMUNITION RULED OUT

Liz Truss has rejected the recommendations of the LAG process. It has been confirmed that a ban on lead ammunition has been ruled out by the government and there will be no further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition.

In a letter to LAG chairman, John Swift, Liz Truss said: “the report did not show that the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing current policy; we therefore do not accept your recommendation to ban the use of lead ammunition”.

Her letter confirmed that the Food Standards Agency will not be changing its advice on the consumption of game shot with lead ammunition. Liz Truss also noted that “the report does not provide evidence of causation linking possible impacts of lead ammunition with sizes of bird populations”.

It has been confirmed that the LAG process has now ended.

Leading countryside groups have welcomed the news.

BASC chairman Peter Glenser said: “The government has engaged in a lengthy, evidence-based analysis of the use of lead ammunition and has found there is no reason to change the law.

“Risks are there to be managed and it is quite clear from current evidence that by following FSA advice and trimming meat of shot-affected areas, the risk can be eliminated.

 

“The UK has also acted to protect vulnerable species by legislating on the use of lead shot for wildfowl and over wetlands.

“Unfortunately, the lead ammunition debate has been hijacked by campaigners who are looking to damage shooting as a whole. This puts them back in their box.”

Countryside Alliance Chief Executive, Tim Bonner, said: “The LAG process has been mind-numbingly slow and increasingly controversial. So controversial in fact that half of the group resigned, unable to work with its Chairman John Swift, before LAG finally submitted its final report to Defra last year. Those resignations included that of our then Executive Chairman Barney White-Spunner who said at the time that he left because of abuses of process and evidence that render the group’s work so flawed it can never reach any scientific conclusions.

“We are profoundly grateful that the Alliance’s position has been entirely vindicated by the Secretary of State and that she has rejected any further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition, let alone the total ban on lead ammunition that John Swift proposed in his report.

“A ban on the use of lead ammunition would have a significant impact on the huge contribution shooting makes to conservation, to local communities and to the rural economy. From the start of this process the Countryside Alliance was, therefore, very clear that any further restrictions could only ever be justified on the basis of real, relevant scientific evidence. The painstaking work of successive Alliance representatives on LAG has revealed that evidence just does not exist.”

Jonathan Young, Editor of The Field, said: “This is the best news for shooting in decades.

“For years we have been living under the threat of a ban on lead shot, which would have had dire consequences for British gameshooting and the wildlife it supports. Now we have a government that has had the resolve to reject the claims made by the rump of the Lead Ammunition Group and its chairman John Swift, and we can all move forward.”

 

[vlywaterman]

From the Lead Ammunition Group's last meeting:

The Chair reported as follows:

3.1 The LAG report had been submitted for Defra consideration in June 2015. On the 13th July 2016 Defra had informed the Chair and published on their website a letter from the extant (at the time) Secretary of State Elizabeth Truss indicating that Defra did not intend to take further actions to reduce risks from lead ammunition. The timing of the announcement (i.e. coinciding with the

LAG meeting minutes: 19 ‐ 15 August 2016

Page 2 of 6

departure of David Cameron and inauguration of Theresa May), coincident with Ms. Truss’ imminent change of job, was noted to be unconvincing.

The Secretary of State’s lack of action appeared to be based upon two key points:

1. She justified her decision on “lack of evidence of causation linking possible impacts of lead ammunition with population sizes of birds in England”.

   It was noted by the meeting that Defra had been informed at the April LAG meeting of the recent Ibis paper (see above) on population level effects and had received a pre-publication copy immediately thereafter.

   There was discomfort with the sense that any scale of (what was felt to be avoidable) mortality and welfare harm is acceptable as long as it is unproven that there is a causal link to population sizes.

2. She maintained that the current FSA advice “to minimize the risk of lead intake, people who frequently eat lead-shot game, particularly small game, should cut down their consumption. This advice is especially important for vulnerable groups such as toddlers and children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby” – was felt to remain unaffected by the report’s findings.

   The meeting noted that the narrative in the shooting media (in particular of ‘more lead in beer’ etc.) probably prejudiced the value and efficacy of the FSA advice.

3. She acknowledged the issue of poor compliance with existing Regulations and confirmed that they would look at how existing Regulations on wildfowling can be better implemented. They also understood that FSA would be considering if action was required to raise awareness of their advice amongst the at-risk population.

3.2 On receipt of the Secretary of State’s (Defra) response, the LAG Report with its Risk Assessment and Risk Mitigation Register had been published on the LAG website.

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015- without-Appendices.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LAG-Report-June-2015- Appendices-without-Appendix-6.pdf

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LAG-Report-June-2015-RISK- MITIGATION-REGISTER-Appendix-6.pdf 

I want to wait and see what there response to her letter is.

[vlywaterman]

just came across this video, if one thinks they can be careful and trim the lead away look at the x-ray of the pig shot in the neck,,,, the lead is all the way down into it's shoulder.

http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/videos2015.html

[Rattler]

He was using a 6mm bullet but not showing what kind, and shooting with the animal quartering towards him.  I suspect this was a frangible varmint bullet, since it did not show any bullet body remaining in the animal at all when x-rayed.  Varmint rounds are designed to explode when they strike an animal.  The varmints they are used on are not meant to be eaten.  I would say he wasn't using the right bullet for the animal taken, especially if he intended to eat it.  It also would not be a good choice to use such a bullet if you're worried about raptors eating the remains.

Sure copper would be better if you want no fragmentation in the animal, but there are many conventional bullets that will not spread lead in the animal's body like this video tries to assert will happen with any lead bullet.

 

[airedale]

2 hours ago, Rattler said:

He was using a 6mm bullet but not showing what kind, and shooting with the animal quartering towards him.  I suspect this was a frangible varmint bullet, since it did not show any bullet body remaining in the animal at all when x-rayed.  Varmint rounds are designed to explode when they strike an animal.  The varmints they are used on are not meant to be eaten.  I would say he wasn't using the right bullet for the animal taken, especially if he intended to eat it.  It also would not be a good choice to use such a bullet if you're worried about raptors eating the remains.

Sure copper would be better if you want no fragmentation in the animal, but there are many conventional bullets that will not spread lead in the animal's body like this video tries to assert will happen with any lead bullet.

 

Having quite a bit of experience with both the dual purpose 6mm Remington and the virtual twin 243 Winchester calibers on both varmint and Deer I would say you are right on the money. A good controlled expanding bullet does not explode like a varmint type bullet and should be used on any game especially big game intended for consumption. Anyone with any basic hunting ammunition knowledge knows that varmint bullets are made with thin jackets to expand on smaller size critters and also to fragment into small pieces if they hit the ground and not go ricocheting across the open landscape many hundreds of yards. 

Match your ammo to your game, butcher your game animals carefully removing any suspect meat and you will have no problems as was proven in the exhaustive UK study!

 

Al

Edited September 11, 2016 by airedale

[vlywaterman]

I didn't think he might be using frangible bullets, I don't really think they would be very effective for hunting those animals. I will try to find the answer to that, I sent a message to the nonlead contact to see if we can contact Anthony Prieto, the hunter in the video.

[vlywaterman]

Match your ammo, butcher carefully,,,,, you're great up to there, 

One hundred fourteen (114) additional samples of ground and whole cut venison were solicited from WDNR employees in order to more directly sample the hunter population (“hunter samples”). These were screened and analyzed as above. Sixteen of the 114 hunter samples were identified by the submitter as “commercially processed.” Therefore, for the purpose of calculating averages, these sixteen were grouped with the pantry samples, for an adjusted total of 199 pantry (or commercially processed) samples and 98 self-processed samples (from hunters).

Results. Lead was ultimately detected in 30 of 199 commercially processed samples, a prevalence of 15% (Table 1). The mean lead concentration found among those pantry samples positive for lead was 15.9 mg/kg ± 32.5 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all pantry samples was 2.4 mg/kg ± 13.8 std. dev.

Lead was detected in 8 of 98 hunter samples, a prevalence of 8%. Seven of the eight positives were from ground meat; one was from a whole cut. The mean lead concentration found among those hunter samples positive for lead was 21.8 mg/kg ± 67.1 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all hunter samples was 1.8 mg/kg ± 19.8 std. dev. 

even with hunter butchered samples, 92% were lead free, great for a lottery ticket, but I wouldn't take that gamble with my family. And in the UK  with over five years of work, the results they published were that lead is harmful and that there should be a ban,,, but the secretary of state's letter put a stop to all that and she wanted to dissolve the whole group. Something that as of now they have chosen not to do. So, I don't think the "rest of the story" is out on that yet.

[vlywaterman]

He said he used a 6mm Federal Premium, Nosler Partition, he was pretty sure it was 100gr. I'd  want to look at the video again, but he thought he had a pretty good broadside of the animal.

If you don't think those bullets fragment shoot them into five 1 gallon water jugs at 100yds and weigh what is left,,, actually you can look at what is left, particularly if you shoot both copper and lead. Instead of just talking, and imagining this stuff, just do it, then lets talk.

[vlywaterman]

here is a video that is already done, but I really suggest you do it yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJXderphCM

 

[Dinsdale]

40 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

He said he used a 6mm Federal Premium, Nosler Partition, he was pretty sure it was 100gr. I'd  want to look at the video again, but he thought he had a pretty good broadside of the animal.

If you don't think those bullets fragment shoot them into five 1 gallon water jugs at 100yds and weigh what is left,,, actually you can look at what is left, particularly if you shoot both copper and lead. Instead of just talking, and imagining this stuff, just do it, then lets talk.

 I'd hope so....thats exactly what they are designed to do, shed the front part as they peel open.

You want a different outcome need to pick a better construction for higher weight retention.

Driving the 180gr at 300WBY velocities (3000fps+) they do a hell of a job on broadside shots on deer and larger game.

And I'm not imaging that!

Now Swift Aframes and Trophy Bonded Bearclaws....the few I have recovered have over 90%+ retention on heavy game (500lbs plus) from 2650-3100+ velocities (30-06 and 300RUM). Some of those have made length wise exits chest through hams from the RUM on deer sized game.

 

[vlywaterman]

my bad, I was referring to what a previous hunter had thought, that he might have been using varmint rounds  "I suspect this was a frangible varmint bullet, since it did not show any bullet body remaining in the animal at all when x-rayed.  Varmint rounds are designed to explode when they strike an animal.  The varmints they are used on are not meant to be eaten.  I would say he wasn't using the right bullet for the animal taken, especially if he intended to eat it." But he wasn't, he was using a typical lead jacketed round.

no, you are not imagining that.

I think in most of my shooting I loose 25-35% of the round just fired into water,,, .223 was the worst(talking the copper jacketed of course).

[airedale]

When I see anything posted from a group with a name like hunting with "NON LEAD.ORG" a red flag "immediately" pops up! There is an agenda with people intentionally manipulating facts and tests to show the worst possible outcome scenario they can come up with. Anyone with rudimentary knowledge about ballistics and bullet construction can easily skew the results into what they want to see.

How do I know they are manipulating? Because of tons of personal experience and the experience of other hard hunters and shooters  that have used traditional ammo and are not seeing anything in real life hunting that these misleading stories are showing. 

Having acquaintances in the hunting world in the UK especially those that hunt with dogs I was kept informed on the the attempt to ban lead shot for hunting. They were using the same tactics we see here, one of a health risk eating game taken with traditional lead ammo. Now for those that do not know gun ownership and hunting in the UK has virtually disappeared for the common man, hunting with dogs has been banned in most cases except for RATS! This is all due to animal rights and the disdain for personal gun ownership. If there was ever a place where traditional lead ammo could be banned the UK would be the place. Even with the overwhelming numbers and money the anti backers had trying to get this ban passed it could not be done for the simple reason that it can not be proven anyone ever got lead sickness from consuming animals taken with traditional ammo.

And as I have said previously in this long thread, if this anti gun Obama administration could in anyway prove traditional ammo caused a legitimate health hazard to hunters consuming meat that has been taken with this traditional ammo they would have went into a full court media blitz to get it banned. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind this train of thought was not looked into but the reason nothing could be done was the same reason it could not be banned in the UK. There has never been a case of lead poisoning from a hunter eating his game taken with traditional ammo in the hundreds of years it has been used!

Learn how to prepare your game meat properly to remove all suspect meat that might contain bullet fragments or shot and as the exhaustive UK study "PROVED' you will have zero to fear of any lead poisoning enjoying your game meals taken with traditional hunting ammo!

Al

Edited September 12, 2016 by airedale

[Rattler]

I noticed in one of the studies pointed out above, people who did their own butchering submitted venison to be tested and a lot of lead was found in the ground venison.  I suspect some people felt it was OK to throw blood shot meat into the grinder.  Did you notice that only one piece of whole meat, out of 98, had any trace of lead?

"Lead was detected in 8 of 98 hunter samples, a prevalence of 8%. Seven of the eight positives were from ground meat; one was from a whole cut." 

This seems to prove proper butchering will prevent lead in venison from being ingested.

As far as the pig shooter's claim he used a Nosler Partition bullet, I call BS, as the base of that bullet remains wholly intact when it hits an animal, and I see no wholly intact base in that x-ray anywhere in that pig.  If he truly used a Nosler 6mm Partition to shoot that pig, I believe he would have stated that in the video and shown the round being chambered for proof.  Since he didn't give any details about the round used in the video other than it being a conventional lead round, I think he's being dishonest.  

And as stated above, I also do not find them to be an objective source of information on this subject and would not trust their reports.

[Fingerlakes Hunter]

I like Nosler E-tips or Cutting Edge Copper Raptors. Great accuracy out of my 7mm REM MAG with handloads.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Fingerlakes Hunter

[Dinsdale]

43 minutes ago, Fingerlakes Hunter said:

I like Nosler E-tips or Cutting Edge Copper Raptors. Great accuracy out of my 7mm REM MAG with handloads.

Have a guy on another forum who loaded some of the CEB for a hunt in 375hh for plains game hunt.

Boy did he have terrible terminal ballistics. Almost got his PH gored by one pissed off Bushbuck they went after in the thick. Great shot placement and crappy results.

Guess it happens with all of them eventually.

[Rattler]

For all you non-lead guys, do you shoot small game with shotguns?  Are all your shells non-lead bird shot?

[vlywaterman]

Thanks for putting me on the spot,,,, no, I haven't been, but I will now. I can list a bunch of excuses, but that is all they are. I had asked Carroll Henderson from MN DNR about a video I had seen where this guy was talking about the ineffectiveness of non-lead shot, and this is his response. Mr. Henderson is at least partially responsible for us having eagles in NYS. In the early 70's if you recall we had only one nesting pair of bald eagles(that couldn't hatch any eggs), now we have at least 200 pairs. Mr. Henderson sent a number of birds and eggs back with Pete Nye and some other DEC officials. Actually the oldest eagle we know of, was killed by a car in Western NY(last year?), was one that he had caught and sent back for us some 38 years ago. 

Mr. Bacon is woefully misinformed and seems to be parroting the misinformation of the National Shooting Sports Foundation.  When hunters first needed to comply with the need to use nontoxic shot for waterfowl hunting, the rule of thumb for the transition was to go to one size larger shot to get comparable performance.  If a hunter were accustomed to use # 6 lead shot for pheasant hunting, a switch to # 6 nontoxic shot would result in a lighter impact and effect which it seems to be what is implied in the video.  However, by switching to # 4 nontoxic shot, results should be comparable to # 4 lead.  I have used  nontoxic shot for pheasant hunting on our farm in Iowa for over 20 years with no apparent change in effectiveness.  There is now a new firm called Rio in Marshall, Texas that produces nontoxic bismuth shot on a large scale.  Also, outdoor writer Ron Spomer just published a really nice article in Outdoor News about the effectiveness of nontoxic shot for all shotgun hunting.  I have an extra copy of the newspaper that I can send you--send me your address.