lead in ammunition

[vlywaterman]

I have never used the copper 22, and past reviews of nonlead 22's have been bad to say the least. I can't get any of them locally yet. I asked a friend of mine  that has tested these and this is what he sent me:

The original CCI 22 Short Range Green 22 Rimfire and the Winchester Tin .22 rimfire that we have tested did not produce acceptable results. Both had poor accuracy and did not function in semi-auto rifles.


The brand new CCI COPPER 22 is very accurate and functioned well in our rifles. I have been recommending the CCI COPPER 22 to people looking for non-lead rimfire.

***If you do recommend any non-lead .22 rimfire please make sure that you ONLY recommend the CCI COPPER 22. If they buy the other ammunition they will have a poor experience and your creditably will be hurt. 

Hope this helps,

I would also like to add that in CA,,, the ban is only for hunting purposes,,, you can still buy and shoot lead ammo.

And, I came across this,,,, thought it might be of some interest, these are all hunters.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/136664-hunters-federation-takes-aim-at-lead-ammunition
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[airedale]

Well your friend's evaluation does not have much credence with me, I am pretty knowledgeable when it comes to firearms and when it comes to rimfires that is my wheelhouse. What your friend considers accurate does not jive at all, below is a very good honest evaluation that was just done with the same ammo. One of many that all have pretty much the same results.    And yes the California ban is only for hunting, I guess that makes the folks out there that hunt with probably the most popular round on the planet feel good!   Please do not try to bullshit me!   Al   =====================================   I, and two other shooting buddies, tried the ammo out at my 110M range. One of the guys got 1,000 rounds from somewhere and shared it with us. We are all accomplished shooters ie: 4 decades @ in competition. We each fired 50 rounds in 10 5 round groups at 50 for record and then screwed around shooting at some of my IHMSA regulation PISTOL .22 swingers at ranges they are set up for those matches. Rifles were CZ 452 trainer, Win 52, Kimber 82G and a Marlin 60. All of em scoped, shot from a bench, sand bags front and rear. Conditions were virtually zero wind, targets and bench in the shade, 75-81F, humidity 79%, zero mirage, 0700-1000 hrs on a Saturday morning. The absolute best results at 50 yards from a bench etc. was 5 rounds in 1.5".  Most were a tad over 3" and some of the groups looked like bad shotgun patterns instead of groups. At 75+ yards we could not hit 5" swingers but maybe 1 out of 10 shots. When we did hit one it hardly removed the paint from it. Not surprising as with the standard 1:16 twist most .22's won't do squat with light bullets. One guy had a 1:24 twist rifle set up for CB's and he tried that but could not get on paper at 50, did not want to screw with the scope settings, so he bagged that as just wasting ammo. Things we noticed: 1. When "they" say "superb" accuracy they don't say at what range. 2. The rounds shed over half their velocity by 100 yards. 3. Could not find any Ballistic Coefficient for them but working backwards based on the drop tables and speed, chronographed at 100, it came out around .03. Most .22 lr rounds.....not all!.... have BC's around .138. 4. Based on the above the energy at 50 then 75 then 100 is approximately 63 Foot Lbs, 47 and 40 respectively. That compares to 90, 86 and 83 for a 40 gr CCI SV. 5. Nobody hunted with them yet but one guy shot a dead Armadillo with it at around 10 yards and the round did not penetrate it's "shell". We gave him back all the unused rounds.

[vlywaterman]

Al, what part seemed like I was giving you BS? I said I never shot them,, and this is what a friend of mine told me. Looks like you know how to shoot,,, you didn't say exactly what rounds you were shooting though, and I didn't see anyone comparing different rounds,,,, is that all you shot, just from the 1000 rounds someone came up with? are you bullshitting me? Did your friend get those rounds locally? I still can't seem to find them and Dave in Margaretville (well Jack anyway), says he can't get them. Whoever was looking for the 7mm-08, I did ask Dave to get some in, and I got a box today, about $30,,,, would be happy to shoot them with whoever said they wanted to try them. Or drop them off.

[airedale]

The ammo tested above is the new CCI green non lead just fired a couple of weeks ago.

When it comes to the 22 LR a copper or copper composite bullet will never be satisfactory for hunting or targets. It is all about the laws of simple ballistics and bullet coefficient, a bullet's weight relative to it's diameter and length. 

 

The easiest analogy would to be to take two baseballs, one a regular major league and a whiffle type baseball. Babe Ruth could hit and connect on both with the same power, the real baseball will easily fly out of the park but not so with the whiffle ball which would be lucky to make it much farther than the infield. Even though the balls are exactly the same size dimension wise it is the weight in relation to size that makes the big difference.

 

Even when made from lead the 22 LR's bullet coefficient in on the very low end of the scale, made from something light like copper is hopeless. The 22 LR's only hope for success as  non lead would be a bismuth type with a copper jacket that would give it the weight needed to boost it's ballistic coefficient. The problem is the cost which would be expensive, the copper bullets as bad as they perform go for over $10 and that is for only 50.

 

Al

 

[vlywaterman]

That is a great analogy, thank you. 

I hope to find some sometime to try,,, but your stats with those rounds,,,,,,I do as well or pretty close off hand with my pistol(with lead). 

 

[vlywaterman]

Al,  I just reread your post,, the CCI green you mentioned that you tested and the CCI copper are not the same,,,, if you would be so kind as the check those boxes I would appreciate it. The CCI green are the ones that everyone says are junk. The CCI copper 22 are really brand new.

thanks

[vlywaterman]

Rattler, I believe you were the one looking for the 7mm-08, the box I just bought at Dave's is Nosler E-Tip,140gr with a polymer tip. Box claims 2662fps at 100 yds, 2202ft-lbs energy. They were $29.95. 

[airedale]

9 hours ago, vlywaterman said:

Al,  I just reread your post,, the CCI green you mentioned that you tested and the CCI copper are not the same,,,, if you would be so kind as the check those boxes I would appreciate it.

The green terminology was my own which I use for all non lead ammunition. The ammo tested is the very latest CCI copper 22 LR ammunition that your friend seems to be satisfied with. The test posted above was just done a couple of weeks ago. I will add the test above is just one of many that have taken place with this ammo by other rimfire shooters  all of which have come to the same conclusion that it is garbage compared to lead and especially so if used for hunting. 

Al

[vlywaterman]

ok, thanks for the clarification, it would be nice to see comparisons though if you ever get a chance to do this again. Maybe that is typical for your shooting,,,,,,,you really didn't say how well you do with lead ammunition.

[airedale]

Here you go I recently put a different scope on my Remington 541S and sighted it it in using 4 different types of ammunition, the target spots are about the size of a quarter, 5 shot groups at 50 yards.

Edited October 29, 2016 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks Al -

Your data reinforces the problems with non-lead .22.

[Padre86]

This thread just needs to die.

 

Out of all of this, there were probably 1-2 pages of mildly useful information; the rest is just argumentative garbage.  

[turkeyfeathers]

15 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

This thread just needs to die.

 

Out of all of this, there were probably 1-2 pages of mildly useful information; the rest is just argumentative garbage.  

IMO if there's 1-2 pages of mildly useful information than it's fully worth reading    I've wasted a lot more time on worse threads on here. Thanks for those who contributed