Doc

Things have truly gotten out of control. I never do holidays very well with all the damn food and sweets and crap everywhere I turn. And I found out that I actually get more exercise before season with all the scouting and stand building and other hunting related activities. But once the season starts, I walk to the stands, and plunk my rump down and then walk back out. Not exactly what you would call a good cardio-workout. So yes there is a resumption of workouts and diet control coming.

Same here, and the reason is that it is a small chunk of land that is already filled up. We are able to get the number of hunters on the land because we all get together and discuss where we are going to be standing to ensure that no one is cutting another off, and that all hunting set-ups are safe and spaced far enough apart. I cannot deal with organizing the hunting on my land beyond that, and I don't want to deal with the conflicts and potential hazards of just opening it up further and losing all control entirely. I have a feeling that a lot of landowners are in the same boat. I have horror stories from both my father's experiences and my own where a simple act or two of generosity spun out of control to the point where my Dad's driveway began to look like a parking lot with all the hunters being friends and relatives of "friends and relatives of the couple co-workers that he originally gave hunting access to. He didn't know the names of a single one. Finally a chain had to go across the driveway and the people were told to leave and not to come back when they came to the door. I had a similar experience when I looked out the front window of our raised ranch set behind a 1000' deep thicket and watched a drive of 8 redcoats being set up in front of the house. I hot-footed it down and grabbed the ring-leader who turned out to be the brother-in-law of a guy I worked with some 6 years prior. I kind of lost it and left no doubt in their minds that they were to leave immediately and not ever come back. The next weekend was when the posted signs first went up and have remained ever since.

I don't understand what the thrill is to be trying to kill game with the least effective equipment, but there seems to be some reason why people want to try it. The .22 hornet is a legal deer caliber in areas of NYS where rifles are legal. I'm waiting for someone to try to rationalize using it for deer hunting. Of course, given perfect circumstances, the hornet will kill a deer, but what would even make anyone try?

At last, finally we are getting to a few real numbers in some of these videos and web-sites. Still a bit light on trajectory and range info, but little by little there is some actual penetration examples, animal sizes, and a little speed and projectile data. So far I have seen the performance at distance data but I did note in one of the videos that the hunter with the Benjamin .357 Rogue felt that his setup on a hartebeest was 50 yards maximum. While I was looking at some of the web-sites, I started to get the idea that the expensive rifle itself was only part of the cost. There seems to be tanks and all kinds of other pneumatic accessories that have to be bought also. I didn't find where they really got into that stuff but some of the tank costs looked a little huge to me. Also no mention of how many shots per tank, so I have no idea what the real cost per shot is. And hopefully that $1295 compressor or the $3000 one are not essential accessories .... lol. It's all interesting stuff, but still a lot of performance numbers missing. And some of what I saw on these sites and in the videos still has me wondering why anyone would think that these things are safe to use in urban and suburban scenarios where other rifles have been outlawed for deer hunting. Apparently certain chosen models equipped in certain ways are capable of taking down a water buffalo. That model at least probably wouldn't really be suitable for inner city deer hunting ..... lol. But I will say that it is an interesting subject.

I am just curious. Have you found that the .270 has been having difficulties coping with the brush. I know that the light higher speed bullets deflect and even disintegrate when they hit obstructions like branches saplings and twigs, and I am assuming that is why you want to switch to slugs, but have you actually had a problem with the .270 in this regard? I just recently switched from a 12 gauge to a .270, so I am curious as to what kinds of problems you may have actually encountered. I have many really tight thickets that I wouldn't take my .270 into, but the fact is that I wouldn't expect my old 12 gauge to plow through that stuff either. Anyway, I am just curious as to how big a problem you have been having and whether I should be concerned or not.

Actually, sitting around the campfire with your hunting clothes on might be a great way to get the smoke stink into them. I know anytime I sit around the fire the wind direction instantly changes to blow the smoke right at me. It must be some law of physics or something.....lol. I don't know, I am almost leaning towards giving it a try myself. If it's good enough for the Indians, why not give it a try.

I was hoping that this discussion would answer the question as to whether I should be for them or against them as a deer hunting weapon, not some kind of bogus comparison between air rifles and bows. So far the real subject of performance as a deer hunting weapon has been left out of the discussion. Real numbers regarding terminal energies at various distances, realistic trajectories at longer distances, or even empirical data of actual use on big game at various distances. What I have learned from this discussion still leaves me wondering if we are trying to kill deer with a pellet gun or some super efficient gun that has the killing power of conventional deer rifles. I know that when it comes to firearms, a lot of print has been used on what calibers and what loads are really adequate to kill a deer. I would expect that same scrutiny and discussion to take place before anyone gets all fanatical about these air guns and offers or withholds support for these weapons to be used on big game. All this peripheral drummed-up theory and comparisons to bows or whatever is really just diversion from the central question of, "Does the air rifle belong among the conventional calibers of firearms or not as a deer hunting weapon". Well that is still a question that apparently no one really wants to answer.

I have also heard of this idea being used by the Indians, but never had a chance to try it. Your experiment will be interesting. Was there any things so far that made you think it worked or didn't? I know these things are hard to prove or disprove because you don't always get to witness the effects. Also it is difficult to prove that the effects were due to the experiment. But at least it would be interesting to note the reactions (or lack thereof) of the deer to the intense smoke scent.

When it comes to challenge, you will have a real hard time convincing me that there is any comparison between any rifle of any sort and any bow of any sort. That is not even something that I would seriously waste time discussing because that is just a foolish comparison. You talked about the sub-moa accuracy, and then try to compare the challenge to that of a bow. Your comparisons with archery equipment are a hell of a reach at best in terms of a challenging method of deer hunting, and that is a judgment that doesn't really require any shooting experience with one of these rifles to make. As far as level of archery skills/challenges, I have to say that I watched Stacey Groscup shoot aspirins out of the air with a recurve, but I wouldn't exactly call that something that the average archer can do. Yes a dozen yards was a bit short and was mentioned in the context of a beginning archer of the recurve days (me), but I and many other people start getting a little uncomfortable after 25 yards. That is more likely the maximum efficient range of the average archer today. And yes with that limited distance the challenge is way more than any kind of rifle. So that point isn't even arguable. Quote: "The ballistic performances isn't much different than that of a broad head from archery equipment. Both implements primarily kill by means of wound channel and hemorrhaging." So you are saying that these big bore air rifle have the same looping trajectory as an arrow? See, when it comes to performance, I know nothing about these rifles, so I am surprised to hear that the performance is so poor. It sounds like a rangefinder would be a necessary accessory. But let me clear up one thing about the theory of killing between a blunt rifle projectile and a broadhead. The broadhead relies on sharp-edge laceration to penetrate to the vitals. Most bullets that I know of rely on energy and impact to penetrate to the vitals. That is a whole opposite theory of getting the job done with absolutely no similarity. I just wanted to straighten that point out a bit. So anyway, basically in every instance where you try to compare any rifle to a bow, the comparison fails miserably because there really is no comparison. Each weapon is unique in form and function with no similarities of any sort. You picked a bad weapon to try to compare air rifles against. That is a true attempt at apples and oranges type comparison, and not even that close of a comparison. Traditions ..... not a real big deal, but when I was a kid, my air rifle (B-B gun) was doing well to kill a sparrow. What a stretch it is to see a B-B gun being considered as any kind of deer hunting weapon of tradition. You asked why I use a bow, and "tradition, culture and heritage" was all part of my answer. It was never about trying to re-live my childhood. You misunderstood the kind of tradition that I was talking about. Cost vs. performance: My .270 Ruger American is a fairly decent quality gun, and it cost no where near the numbers I saw in this thread of one of these air rifles. The .270 will handle 95% of the shooting opportunities in NYS when it comes to deer. That's not the picture I am getting of these air-guns. So again, I do question the price vs. performance issue of opting for an air rifle. At least there is a huge issue there that I need more convincing on before I get all excited about running out and buying one of these things....lol. I do wonder about what the recommended maximum effective range is for deer. And I am curious about terminal energies and what is considered to be too far to ethically use one of these. I was hoping for more technical data on performance, but I guess I am not really all that interested to go on a research mission. But anyways, I guess I can now see a use for air-rifles in urban/suburban areas, which I will never really have to concern myself with. It certainly would never be my choice for the more traditional rural hunting by any stretch of the imagination. And perhaps it may be a desirable thing for kids where the massive kick of a .270 or .243 is just simply overwhelming (Sarcasm intended) . Oh yeah and other situations where noise may be a concern it might serve as a weapon with the features of a silencer that some may be interested in. Anyway, that's a pretty small niche, but does answer why somebody might consider buying one. I guess I am satisfied that there is nothing there for me, and I thank you for the answers.

When I got into bowhunting, it was for the super-challenge that it represented. The challenge of using a weapon that required muscle memory, and a whole list of form disciplines. The weapon then had a very direct tie to tradition, history and culture. A weapon that demanded some extreme challenges in the required knowledge of deer habits and patterns so you could get within a dozen yards and pull off a decent shot. Bows have changed appearance and performance, but the basic disciplines involved in shooting them haven't changed a whole lot. A lot of what appeared in the books of archery still apply in today's books. And so the appeal of challenge makes it an endeavor that still has the appeal of having accomplished something that is difficult. Does an air rifle provide those kinds of challenges? I really don't know because I have never shot one with the intention of dropping a deer. I don't see those same element of challenge other than wondering if I really have the energy performances to drive a projectile deep enough to enter and disrupt vital organs. The theory of operation is totally different than a broadhead, so I have no way of judging the adequacy of the weapon. It does leave me with questions of adequate performance and limitations. But again, I have no knowledge of these weapons and hence my questions. Are these things something that I would lay down twice the money that I spent on my .270? Is the performance per dollar similar to my .270? So many questions..... so few answers.....lol.

The reasons given made no sense as I explained. So I am still curious as to what the attraction is and hoping there is someone who can explain it. Perhaps I'm missing out on something if someone will take the time to honestly explain it all to me with real and logical answers. I would appreciate that rather than a whole bunch of uncalled for feigned outrage and defensiveness. And by the way, in case it all went over your head, I am not attacking the weapon or the use of it. I am simply trying to understand what people feel are the reasons for wanting to use them. Nothing aggressive or unfriendly or anything for you to be getting all indignant about. Just curiosity. It is the same kinds of questions I have asked a thousand times about different makes of bows, and certain calibers and models of rifles or shotguns. Frankly, I have never had anybody ever take offense over my asking those kinds of questions.

Lol

By the way, I would like to make an observation from some nearby state land. Most of the trash that I have found and removed was concentrated on the trails gouged into the forest floor my mountain bikers and the constant string of hikers that use those trails also. So, trying to blame it all on hunters is a pure distortion of facts. Oh, and aren't those blobs of bright colored paint splashed all over the trees next to the trails attractive. It's as if these bikers and hikers are all semi blind and unable to recognize the maze of dirt ditches that they are riding on. And while the DEC gets all excited over a hunter nipping a branch or two, they don't seem to have any problem with the bikers having a field-day with chainsaws removing limbs and downed logs. They do this with DEC permission and blessing. And then too, speaking of trash in the woods, I can't say that I have seen a whole lot of hunters walking through the woods carrying those mylar balloons that nobody seems to have a problem releasing into the air without a care where they will fall and become litter. People that would never think to thrown non-biodegradable materials out their car windows will stand there and oo-o-o & ah-h-h while they turn loose these party balloons totally unconcerned where they will eventually wind up. What friggin stupidity!

As it was intended to be. In fact most gun control laws are designed for maximum confusion to discourage firearms and accessories purchases. It is working exactly as intended as shown by this response by the sales clerk.

If you look on the DEC map where the antlerless only edict was placed, you will notice that the effected areas include some urban areas, but mostly run out into rural areas as well.

Look, I'm just asking reasonable questions, and hoping for reasonable answers, not some snide comments of who things are all about or aren't. Nobody gets into things without some logical reasons. I'm just curious as to what those reasons possibly could be. If you can't come up with any, don't feel bad. So far nobody else has either.

The DEC is simply building a case to maintain deer populations at levels that satisfy the politics of satisfying moneyed stakeholders. Yes, we all remember days when hunting was exciting because of so many opportunities. Apparently the DEC has decided to put the "hunt" back into hunting. And boy the explanations all fly fast and furious each year, don't they? Some of the more arrogant hunters like to blame it all on hunters who apparently have recently gotten stupid or lazy or blind, or who just simply all of a sudden don't have a clue how to hunt. And then there are the weather critics ...... it was too warm. Don't like that one, how about too many acorns ....ok how about not enough acorns? Bad winters? Predators? Look, how about the answer that makes the most sense. The DEC's estimates of herd size are either mistakenly too high, or they simply are purposely distorting the numbers to support their agenda of whacking down the herd to something that is insignificant in terms of deer damage to the various financial interests who are impacted by the deer. The big question now is just how far down do they have to draw the herd size down to satisfy all those squeaky wheels that have established political control over DEC policies. I guess time will tell. And in the mean time we will listen to those that remember a better time. and we will still be amused at all of the annual excuses as to why we just aren't seeing the deer we used to. And the DEC will continue to claim higher and higher deer populations. Its all pretty fun to watch.

Well I have to admit that TV hunting programs (faked-up infomercials) have failed to capture my interest for a few years now. So if they have been touting the virtues of air rifles lately I guess I could have easily missed it. And making it to the Shot Show is not likely in my future either.....lol. But I do subscribe to quite a few magazines, and I have to say tat they are not something that jumps out in every issue. Now as far as the benefits, I do still see a lot of active interest in impact energy, and speed and trajectory in big game rifle discussions and to a point it is generally considered to be a good thing to have knock-down power, and flat trajectories. These are generally considered to be good things and not liabilities. The noise is something that I don't really care about. When a deer hears the noise of my .270, he is already dead .... lol. Recoil again, not a big deal. My .270 has no objectionable recoil, and anyone at any age could shoot it without any bother. And reduced effective range is not something that I would be looking for in a deer rifle. So once again, I have to wonder out loud, just what is the appeal or benefits to buying something that does the job on big game in a marginal or compromised fashion? From what I am hearing, that is a pretty reasonable question.

Yes, the threat was that if bowhunters didn't do the impossible, that is control deer populations for all of hunting but with a very inefficient weapon, they were going to introduce muzzleloaders into the bow seasons. Which by the way was an idea that they championed a decade ago before conjuring up an excuse to legitimize it. Don't kid yourself, phase two was really their phase one plan regardless of what bowhunters did or didn't do. Point #2- Is it the bang that turns deer nocturnal? Or is it the panic they experience when every time they turn around there is human scent slamming into their noses. I think that is more likely the cause than simply gunshots. As far as I know the shooting by small game hunters does not drive deer into nocturnal patterns unless the pressure becomes too intense. I suspect a sudden increase in deer hunter numbers due to any firearms being introduced will be the real reason for deer to hunker in and adapt their gun season defense mentality. So the DEC may be trying to make it appear that they are friends of bowhunters with some ploy like this, but frankly, I don't really think they give a damn anymore. As they say, "the gloves are off", and the new hardline against bowhunters has begun. They have now adopted the attitude that bowseason is a waste of good deer harvesting time and the quicker they get decent effective weapons into that season the better they can continue to satisfy the whining of NYS's moneyed interests. "Challenging" hunting methods be damned. That is a luxury they are no longer willing to entertain.

You know, there was a time when I would have said exactly that about the NYS Safe Act. I take nothing for granted anymore.

I think that it would be useful to carve a little chunk of the budget out and put up some public service announcements around hunting seasons that is aimed at changing attitudes about doe harvests and the necessity of population control. I think hunters minds and attitudes can be changed with even the most minimal of effort. I think it is also a good way to get the benefits and necessity of hunting put out there (as a side effect). I have always contended that the DEC does not have as big a public presence as they should have. It may be time to change that. I realize that DEC budgets have been cut to the bone, but with a bit of reprioritizing of expenditures they may find that a little more public exposure will offer more bang for the buck. Perhaps some media presence would start creating positive hunter attitudes through public education rather than trying to come up with all of these hair-brained fixes to throw band-aids over the effects of neglected bad, outdated, or uninformed attitudes.

Look, I'll be happy if people would just stop pulling up into the end of our driveway and taking a dump in the middle of it. I realize that emergencies do come about, but it almost looks like they measure the driveway to be sure they plop their crap and toilet paper dead center in the middle .... lol. And then the trash bags that find their way up into our driveway .... what's that all about? What kind of mentality does it take to do that kind of stuff. And then there are the shoulders of the road out front where you will every kind of refuse you could imagine. So, lets face it, people as a species are just filthy pigs that like to foul their own environment, and I believe they often enjoy doing so. The only thing missing is the squealing and grunting. And in the case of these little stinking piles in my driveway, I'm not sure that some squealing ad grunting doesn't accompany that act as well. And we think that people will walk through the woods without throwing all kinds of crap around the woods? The only thing we can do that is reasonable and practical is to accept that some percentage of people who use that area will be these disgusting pig-like creatures and it is probably up to us to pick up after the pigs in the woods.

Yeah, the wind is howling away out there ...... what else is new . If anyone kept any stats on wind speed, I believe that among other record setting weather anomalies, this year has likely been one of the windiest too.

I keep telling you guys that someone has leaked a copy of the hunting syllabus, and a calendar out to the deer herd. I have seen this kind of thing before in my front yard.

How do these things fit into current gun laws? Are they considered a "firearm", or are they some unique uncategorized "thing"? Are they the kind of thing that any neighborhood kid can by and use? I have to admit to being totally unaware of the power of these things. They seem to have been kept out of the hunting magazines and other sources of introduction. So, the only knowledge I have of them is a TV program from Gamo a few years ago where they showed a wild hog being killed by one. I assume it was the same kind of thing they are talking about now. So, other than the noise, what is the big attraction as a big-game weapon? They are slower, they have less energy, and you still have to buy the projectiles (Are they cheaper). Why would anyone buy or use one? Is there an actual reason or benefit?