Doc

Ha-ha-ha ..... What a great come-back! One name says it all ..... lol.

My faith in youth has been restored. This kid has got it right. Perhaps the biggest problem to hunter recruitment is not the kids, but rather the parents attitudes toward outdoor activities. When I was a kid, I was raised around , fishing, hunting, camping, family outings, vacations built around outdoor activities. Both my parents were involved in outdoor interests. I don't see that so much anymore. There is a culture shift going on, and I don't see it retreating .... ever. But this kid put it all into words so much better than I ever could.

Actually, as I understood it, the topic was about deer reactions to dogs, and how that might impact deer hunting and established and scouted out deer patterns. I think that in that context, how deer react to the presence of dogs (any dogs) is exactly on-topic. I also believe that the deer's local experiences with chasing dogs and/or chasing coyotes may also impact the deer's escape reactions when dogs are encountered (Even nice deer-friendly coon hounds) that might alter significantly the results of that study. It is an important aspect that they didn't consider. And again, a discussion of the role of coyotes could very well be exactly on topic as well, because that wrinkle to the deer's world was not studied in terms of how goosey deer can get regarding the intrusion of dogs. Whatever else that moved into the discussion may simply be the normal topic drift that occurs when a topic has been around too long. Threads do have a natural movement to them that is absolutely understandable to a certain extent.

I was rooting for the gator.

It's been put into the DVR.

What is on top is no indicator of what is underneath. Perhaps some backhoe work with test holes might have shown a little of what is under the floor of your pond.

I watched a neighbor down the road construct a huge pond (several acres), and he encountered a leaker. This guy has more money than God, and he sunk a huge amount into it into this hole in the ground trying to build it and then fix it. First he diverted some water from another creek into it. That didn't work. It went away as quick as it came in. And so be began the bentonite treatment. He was messing around with that stuff for a couple of years and eventually got it to hold some water. He had to have spent thousands of dollars trying to make that stuff work, and I assume that he finally sealed it. It's funny, and shows how tricky some of this pond stuff can be. His pond is approximately 200 yards from my Dad's pond which maintains it's level perfectly year around and has for about 30 years or so. And here are these two failed ponds on each side of his. So, like I said, you just never know exactly what is under the ground (test holes and all). No gravel under Dad's but this neighbor and I both found veins of grave. Basically water veins (Gravel conduit for water) ....lol.

Of even more interest is that tracked arrangement on the ATV. Is there any kind of riding condition that could stop that thing? Does that thing ride on snow ok? It looks like it should get up on snow as good as any snowmobile. How is that thing for steering? I have seen these kinds of rigs in ads someplace, but I never knew anyone who actually owned one. Now I have to relook at your pictures and take a look at the brush cutter....ha...ha. I couldn't get my eyes off that ATV monster.

Ha-ha ..... They know how to make a pond better than we do.

Look, don't run away from a discussion simply because you are being overwhelmed with facts. I am simply telling you the indisputable fact that dogs and deer are not buddies in the real world. Really, I didn't think that was some big revelation. And actually I'm certain that you really do know that. I'm sorry if my assertion runs contrary to your preconceived notions but as shown above I have seen some rather graphic evidence that the struggle between dogs and deer is a serious conflict that logically has to get factored into a deer's thinking and reactions. The fact that you can't handle discussion without going personal with it does not negate the point that I have made.

I hate lake-effect storms. It always seems like crap-shoot as to whether you get hit or not. The weather forecasts have to be so damn general that they aren't really any help either in figuring out what's coming your way.

I also have a mix of public and my own private land. Sometimes it helps to have the public land hunters to move some deer for you ..... That is if you can get them off their lazy butts and moving a few deer around (that is not guaranteed).

Great pics. And by the way, your trapper-friend really knows what the heck he's doing. That's an awful good tally. He must have a heck of a long trap-line and some darn good critter-country. Any idea how many hours he puts into it each day?

And, had cameras been as readily available as they are today, I would have been able to show you pictures of dogs tearing apart a deer just before I intervened. And then there was this one that I put out of it's misery that found out the dogs weren't playing: See, not every place and condition are Disney inspired. If deer are as intelligent and capable of logic and reason as is often fantasized about, I can assure you that, other than those that were raised together, deer do not consider dogs to be their playmates. The true everyday encounters between dogs and deer do not happen on You-Tube, but are played out in reality throughout the wild acreage everyday. It's not arguable .... dogs and deer are not buddies.

Bentonite...... It is very expensive, and does not always work. With the rate of loss, my pond guy recommended against it. Also, I decided to exercise his guarantee in case he was to retire or something. That was not a cheap fill-in because he had to basically re-grade the entire field. I had already let it all sit for 3 years just to be sure that it would not silt in the leak area. Something of that kind of expense had me eager to just get the job done and be finished with it while it was still free. The run-off springtime flooding is an unavoidable problem, because of the way the ravines on the hill flood all of the fields when they hit the valley floor. It really didn't cause a problem, but could have . I am just saying, think of what you have that is lower than the pond walls. Back when we had hurricane Agnes and many other flood conditions since there has been flooding in the valley and therefore a potential for filling a pond to overflowing always exists. And once that starts, the entire wall can erode right out at an ugly rate. Just a word of warning that occurred to me as I watched that sucker filling up. I would look real hard at building a spillway or some other outflow/overflow protection. Your pond guy was being very honest with you when he said he cannot guarantee it will hold water. They can dig all the test holes that they want, but there is always a potential for a gravel vein that comes angling up from underneath. However what is not so common is a guarantee to fill it back in if it fails. As far as the surface conditions, do not make to much of that. That tells you nothing. It really doesn't take a huge depth of clay to hold surface water. That includes areas that are wet all year. I think he called his business Ponds Plus or something like that. He is not new in the business and we took a little tour where I saw some of the best ponds I have ever seen and lots of them, so I have complete confidence that he did the best job he could given what was thrown at him. Some times "crap" happens. I think the message I am offering, is that digging a pond is not simply digging a hole. There is a bit of science involved, and a bit of luck as well.

Ha-ha-ha, you have strange animals. Usually wild animals do not have any affection toward other species. I know ours don't, especially those species that would tear them apart if they had the chance. Very odd behavior.

I have no idea why they like to hang out with your dogs, That is not a situation that I have ever seen happen and makes absolutely no sense. And even when we had a dog out in the kennel I can't remember when any deer were cozying up to her. I'm not sure I would chalk that up that kind of weird behavior to some master-mind intelligence though. I have seen deer come into our front yard and graze on the lawn, but that had to do with the fact that they saw some food that they wanted (pretty basic and primitive instinct at work there). As far as coexisting with people here, I can only say that as far as deer acting domestic while feeding on the lawn, they never failed to take off like a ruptured duck as soon as that front door opened up. So, all I can figure is that your deer's odd behavior might be something in the water or maybe your deer are getting into some fermented apples .... lol.

Just remember that what's on top is not necessarily what is underneath test holes are a good idea. The first thing to do is to take a peek. Finding water in the test holes as in springs and such is not necessarily good news because that is a sign of gravel (leaching dirt) that isn't good in a pond. Note the water in this test hole we actually moved the pond because of this hole. Finally it takes the shape of a pond. Spring run-off does a good job of filling the pond. It also sets up some concerns for overflow and potential disaster. Be sure to check what is below the pond in case of a washout....lol. Lookin' good ... eh? Well, maybe in the summer it doesn't look so good. Yup, it was a "leaker", test holes and all. Apparently there was some gravel layer that was a bit to close to the bottom of the pond. Too bad because there was a lot of clay for quite a depth. After watching this disaster for 3 years hoping it would self-heal with silt, it became obvious that it was going to make a great cattail garden and mosquito home. Hey the frogs liked it. Well, I didn't take any pictures of the last step which was to exercise the guy's guarantee to fill it back in for free if the pond failed. But now a bunch of years later, it's as if that fiasco never happened. The guy who did the work has done hundreds of ponds locally. In fact that is all he does for a living, and he really knows his stuff. And he did take all the precautions but there can be sneaky gravel veins that can do a great job of draining ponds. The area has successful pond right across the highway, just a mere couple hundred yards away and there is a swamp within 50 yards. But like I said above, what you see on top the ground doesn't indicate what is under the surface.

Ha-ha-ha..... and do you suppose they make an entry in their journal for all the other deer to read: "Today, a special kind of dog ran by me and didn't try to eat me. We can now ignore all dogs". Ok, a little unnecessary sarcasm there, but exactly how intelligent do you think these critters are. Since few of them live past a year and a half, do you really believe that they apparently cram that level of logic and analysis into that short time. I guess I am a bit skeptical. Yes if they receive repetitive daily input, like farm equipment or some guy doing his chores every day at the same time and in the same way, they may become conditioned to semi-ignore that stuff. But when they are frequently pursued by dog-like creatures, I have to wonder if their brain can sort out the intentions based on species. Maybe they can, but I am not sure that we aren't giving their intelligence a bit more credit than actually exists.

Ok ..... Whatever ..... but at least that does answer the question of how you account for the missing skull ... lol. I was just curious.

Yeah, that's better. Rather than trying to hide the data, they actually gave some meaningful numbers. Basically, this model gets about 500 ft pounds (and since they didn't tie that to any distance, I'll assume that's muzzle energy). Who knows what that number would be one or two hundred yards out. But anyway, it is something that you can rough out some crude comparisons with. So anyway, how does that compare with a low end deer rifle. I picked a .243 with a 100 grain spire. With that bullet loaded to be going 2800 fps, 200 yards downrange (not at the muzzle) this wimpy deer load is delivering 1855 foot-pounds of energy. That's almost 4 times the energy from a rifle that is at the bottom of the list for me to use on deer. I guess you can conclude what you want from all of that, but for me I think I have made up my mind about whether I will be using one on deer or not. Is 500 ft-lbs enough? I guess it all depends on what you find acceptable. I doubt that I will be trading in my .270 for one of these things ..... lol.

No, that is exactly what I was asking about ...... the 16" thing.

Good question. An even better question ...... How do you score two separate antlers? What assumptions about pedicle spread and the angles that the antlers sat on the skull (that you don't have) to establish the spread elements of the score? I always wondered that when people find sheds and claim a certain score. Anybody know?

Pick one. Anyone that you claim is a good deer-getter. It would be nice if the manufacturers of these guns would supply that data all together in one document or book to assist prospective customers in making a proper selection, But so far I have not seen any of that kind of data for even one model. I'm just curious if any of the deer hunting air guns is even in the ballpark with their gun powder brothers. Show me the data. Hell, show me anything that describes the terminal energy at various distances. How else do you make an intelligent decision about these things?

It is only hunters against hunters if you want to turn it into that. My responses have consistently been aimed at one piece of comparative data that helps to contemplate the legitimate place of air guns for deer hunting. The interesting part is that that question is met like I was asking for U.S. government classified information. Hell, we even have you telling me that I have made up my mind and now an implication that people who ask such questions are engaging in "hunter against hunter" mentality. We have people turning it into a ballistics discussion, as though because a projectile powered by air has some secret ballistic edge over gunpowder. I have to admit that I am completely baffled by the reaction. A simple question and such crazy irrational reactions.