Doc

So has anyone ever explained why all of a sudden the bear population is growing and spreading across the state? Does it have something to do with the maturing of NYS habitat?

Why is it that the DEC's version of the process of deer estimation is such a mystery? Nobody seems to be able to describe it in detail. It always comes out sounding like, "Trust me". It would be nice if they offered up some credibility by educating the public a bit. Is there someplace on their website where it is detailed? Over the years, I have managed to pull bits and pieces out of conversations and generalized comments at deer management meetings and a few books and magazines. But really, I have not seen any concentrated discussion offered to the public of the DEC process. I was hoping that this thread would result in somebody who knows these things providing some clarification. But so far, it all still remains a mystery.

You are right ..... definitely no patting is usually needed. You can call yourself whatever you want, and say whatever it takes to create a positive view of yourself. The old "legend in your own mind" syndrome has never been demonstrated better. But like I said, whatever you need to do to create a passable self image .... you go ahead and do it. We all understand. We've all seen personalities like yours before .... lol. By the way, perhaps you could clear up something for me. You claim that the DEC is ruining hunting here in NYS. You also claim to have nearly 1000 acres of private land at your disposal. And yet you spend your time hunting state land managed by the DEC and claim to get trophy deer there. Interesting double-speak there. Apparently they know a whole lot more about deer herd management than you do with your 1000 acres after all.

Lol ..... careful you don't throw a shoulder out of joint with all that patting yourself on the back. Wouldn't that be a treat to hunt with somebody that never tires of telling you how great he is. I'm sure that gets real tired real quick.....Ha-ha. Oh and then gets his jollies by telling you that your deer harvest is substandard. That's just the personality (or lack thereof) that we need in hunting.

I don't know whether I just can't see it or what, but how are you people getting away without electric fencing? If I didn't have my welded wire fencing and the top and bottom strands of electric fence, I just simply would not have a garden left. Between the deer, rabbits, and woodchucks, that thing would be a bare stretch of dirt overnight without it.

I can only relate personal experiences. That's not stereotyping.

Yeah, that's true. In fact you have the whole of the Northern Zone has decades of rifle safety data. But the inroads of rifle into the more populated Southern Zone counties is a fairly recent event with only a few exceptions with several just entering this year. But don't get me wrong, I am hoping that the safety record remains as good or better. I'm just saying that it may be a bit premature to be declaring success. Just because everything has been going well, doesn't mean that it will continue. Also, there is a built-in delay due to everyone getting switched over from shotguns to rifles. I don't know how widespread that is, but I do know people who recently bought brand new shotguns and either don't have the cash or the will to run out and buy a new rifle, so they are still using their shotguns ..... for now. Another thing that I find curious is our recent success with safety numbers. I haven't heard anyone officially making any guesses as to why that is happening. And of course there is always the possibility that it is simply a run of good luck that could reverse at any time regardless of what kinds of weapons are being used. So I guess I am always a bit conservative on doling out the congrats. I'm a bit of a hard-sell, and I'm afraid its going to take some undetermined length of time before I feel confident enough to declare complete success. I can still see factors that may be skewing things a bit.

I have never seen a guy that is so gleeful over the hardships that he is predicting will come for hunters. But I hate to spoil all your fun, but this world of hunting doom and gloom will not likely come in your lifetime. Yeah there are people leasing land already (has been for decades), but the majority of hunters are still not resorting to pay-to-hunt arrangements and most likely never will. Oh sure there will come a day when hunting will be like Europe and such places, but you and I will be long dead and gone when that time comes. So all your glee and giggling at the demise of hunting as it was previously enjoyed by real sportsmen is all a bit premature. I'm afraid that you are going to have to look elsewhere to get your jollies at the expense of others.....lol.

I absolutely agree. Why would a pack of a dozen mountain bikers or hikers hooting and hollering on their way through the inescapable maze of paint smeared bike trails worry about some hunters sitting quietly in the woods hoping that some blind and deaf deer comes stumbling through all that ruckus. Sure they're willing to share or "invade". Hell, lets fill the woods with ATVs and snowmobiles and give those guys a crack at state land too. What the heck, we can hack a few of those pesky trees out of these areas and open up some nice public ski lifts (nothing fancy, just rope lifts) and give those folks equal access to state lands.....lol.

Ha-ha.... Don't be so eager to throw the sport under the bus. It's obvious that you only see how hunting can make you a dollar, but there are still a lot of us who are in it to enjoy it for something other than a way to fill our pockets. If hunting evolves into the activity that you are hoping for, I suppose I will find something else to fill my days. After all when hunting loses it's identity, then it will not be the same activity that has been a huge part of my entire life. So at that point what really will have been lost?

I overheard a DEC biologist say exactly that just before the beginning of one of the "state of the herd" public meetings several years back. He was talking offline to a gun hunter (I assume) and didn't realize I was right behind him. The discussion they were having was about incorporating a muzzleloader season in the bow season. I wonder how widespread that attitude is across the department.

Here's what runs through people's minds. Everyone is aware that there is a certain percentage of hunters that are absolute idiots and unsafe with any weapon simply because of their carelessness and lack of concern for rules of safety. So along comes a law change that puts a weapon of longer distance in the hands of those idiots so now they can be stupid from a farther distance. Of course they are concerned. Is the concern rational? That remains to be seen. We just have to be sure that we don't wind up proving them right.

Where I want to be is the point where I see my hunting as "recreation". I don't want it to be some kind of source of stress, or some form of do-or-die competition. I don't want it to be something that I "work" at like an occupation. I want it to be a hook back to our heritage and culture and to maintain some form of identity with the past and where we come from. I want it to be a source of relaxation and connection with nature. I don't run away from technology, but I don't want the whole activity to become all about technology. I want my results (success or failure) to be as much about my own personal actions and efforts as I can arrange it within the limits of practicality. I'm not looking to be some hunter hero or TV star or noted expert. I'll leave that to those that want hunting to become their career. More power to them, but that's not where I want to be.

I'm a huge proponent of rifles being allowed for deer hunting, but I certainly do appreciate the uneasy feelings that some people might have. Can we point to the recent additions of counties and say that because they have not experienced any additional problems that the uneasy feelings are baseless? Not really. Most of those new rifle counties are only into their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. That really is not much of a base to draw any conclusions on. Also, I suspect that there is still a large percentage of hunters that have not yet switched over to rifle yet, either because of financial reasons or simply because they are still believers in that nice new shotgun that they bought not that many years ago. My attitude is that time will tell if the change was a smart one or not. The debate is not finished yet. In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy hunting with my brand new .270, enjoying every minute of not having my shoulder mangled by my old 12 gauge. And I will be extremely upset if hunters start screwing up this opportunity. But I will not criticize H4W for speaking a bit skeptically. I am skeptical too, and I am hoping that the next decade or so will make me feel completely at ease. One thing I am sure of is that if there is even a slight reversal in the safety records of recent years, the first thing that will be blamed is the change to rifles. So it is a pretty good idea to keep that in mind before pulling that trigger.

I believe I am the world's worst metal detector operator. I have amassed large collections of hinges, nails, pieces of old steel roofing, screws, barbed wire, tin cans, and other assorted pieces of discarded trash. It's not that the targets have been faulty. I mean many of the areas that I have detected were old ancient cabin and house foundations, and the edges of old falling down abandoned houses. But for some reason even decent artifacts or coins or lost jewelry always seem to elude me. I'm pretty darned discouraged.

This really a fun topic. We have the DEC defenders, and the DEC critics/skeptics. I personally don't know just who is right here, and the truth likely lies somewhere in between. I will say that there has been hard historical evidence that the DEC statistical models seem to have flaws, with some less than stellar results. And of course it is the DEC that seems to be the only ones with credible, official, and degreed, wildlife management education. With those sort of credentials, they can say just about anything, and we are supposed to nod our heads and agree with whatever they choose to tell us. Cloaked in a shroud of technological worship, the tendency is to say they are right as long as the rest of the world is not armed with the education to prove them wrong. One thing I will say is that while the DEC sits in their offices playing with mathematical and statistical calculations, it is the hunters that put their feet on the ground each year in every acre of hunting habitat, and when they say that there has been dramatic changes locally in their area from one year to another, I tend to put a quite high level of credibility in those observations. On the other hand, it has to be admitted that while hunters may have a firmer grasp on local population trends, they generally are very, very light on practical, remedial, management plans. So it does come off as whining without any positive solutions. That is probably the least useful situation to have going for us. What really comes out of all this is that managing a statewide deer herd, is really a lot more difficult than anyone is willing to admit. Add in the political aspects of deer management and the idea that management plans have to be all things to all people, and really, you have to give the DEC credit for getting it as close to correct as they do.

He was simply saying that your request wasn't worth his time. It's a shame, but service activities are now gauged on how much money can be made with each customer interface. Little orders get little attention. And if the order is not big enough, it can be refused completely as in your case.

Do you really believe there is a right way to count and control deer. Every plan is compromised by practicality or another way to put it is wildlife management is a function of budgets and gauging the limits of societal acceptance. Do not ignore the fact that the DEC is a political entity controlled by political forces which by definition requires them to try to be all things to all people. Every pressure group has different motives and measures of success. Some want trophy management, others want easy harvests through massive numbers, still others simply want deer to be a totally removed species and there are all kinds of people in between every extreme. And every pressure group has its crack at influencing DEC policy. Money, and political pressure are the fuels that drive our management efforts. I think deer management is a losing activity for the DEC because there is no way that they can satisfy all the political and societal demands and motives. And yet they have to try.

Yeah, I know......all the rock stars have gotten on the pro-hunting and gun ownership bandwagon. It's such a lucrative position to take.

Well that proves it right there doesn't it? .... lol

Yeah, 8N is taking another jump. I'm beginning to wonder if permit numbers really mean anything anymore. It seems that even when they issue more, the herd size keeps going up. Could there be a saturation point where higher permit numbers do not equate to higher deer takes? That would be a scary thought.

We had a local farmer killed exactly that way a bunch of years ago. Apparently he did have allergic reactions to bee-stings.

Of course that reply is not to excuse shady tactics of merchandising ..... right?

As long as I can see them from a distance, and they don't take off right at my feet, I have no problem with them. I don't like them, I simply put up with them.

Look, I personally think he is pretty obnoxious, and probably is someone I wouldn't care to hunt with or hang around with. Yup it was his music that drove me from rock to country and western. That shrieking, squealing guitar noise sent me running. Ok that takes care of all my personal hang-ups on the guy. And when you get finished with all that, it all has to be followed up with a big, "So what!" I don't hear anyone saying they want to be his buddy. But when it comes to hunting and gun issues, the guy has done his homework and can likely out-debate anyone on this forum who refuse to give him credit for that. The other thing I credit him for is the fact that he is one of the few that is actually voicing a public opinion in our support. I hear a lot of people whining about him, but I don't hear any of those people conducting public debate or basically anything else in real support of gun and hunting rights. We always like to kill our own, thinking we are somehow enhancing our own self-image. But the fact of the matter is that damn few people can or will actually speak their beliefs on these subjects publicly.